Gloucester Warwickshire Railway

I was down the M5 on business yesterday and deiced to call in at Toddington on the way back. I was aware that they weren't running trains but was taken aback to find a steel gate across the entrance with an intercom. I asked if I could have a look around only to be told 'sorry, we're closed. Trains are running tomorrow.' I explained my situation, couldn't come back and simply wanted a look around for which I was quite happy to pay but was simply told again, we're closed. I sat in my car to eat my lunch and obviously wasn't unique judging by the others who turned up and then left when confronted by the gate.
On my weekday travels I frequently visit other railways, large and small, many of which aren't operating at that time but there's nearly always someone around, you are welcomed and there is always something to look at. Usually, on making myself known, people are only too willing to show me around behind the scenes and the railway is rewarded with a decent donation. This is especially so on the smaller lines.
I know that the GWSR have been hit by thefts and obviously are wanting to take steps to prevent a recurrence but their fortress and lack of welcome to the casual visitor is not going to endear them and bring in the much needed extra cash.
Am I just being grumpy or have I a valid point?

 

Steve,

the way you describe it, I believe that you are grumpy. I understand your entry, that you expected someone to abandon any other task to open the gate for you and show you (and others) round for a donation. Personally, I think that you expect too much. Closed means closed. There might not have been anyone available to show you round. I do not know the GWSR too well, but maybe the person you have been talking to was an employee who was not aware that there might have been a volunteer around who might have been happy to have a break from some other work in return for some cash. This is the difference to smaller lines which usually are 100% run by volunteers and who might have different attitudes here.

If, however, you suggest that it might be worthwhile to develop a "museum" aspect and charge an entry fee for seeing the station etc. I'm with you. But you never know if that has not been considered yet and been dismissed due to the venture being unprofitable because of staffing costs or impossible because of a lack of volunteers. How many visitors at which entrance fee would make the venture worthwhile? And if the station was open, would the next step be to ask for the station buffet to be open, with extra costs for staff and fresh raw materials which are not necessarily recovered?

Just a few thoughts...

Kind regards

Christoph

 

Am I just being grumpy or have I a valid point?[/QUOTE]

Your'e being grumpy.

And also ignorant. Ignorant of the fact that recently Toddington had a serious break in that cost them some £60,000 of precious equipment. One part stolen from P and O Line the Merchant Navy Class loco represented over a 100 hours of work and will set their restoration back a year.. The thieves had evidently previously cased the joint and knew where all the security cameras were located. Perhaps some kind member of staff had shown them around in good faith.

So don't expect them to fall over themselves giving guided tours to people who can't be bothered to find out when they are open.

 

Your'e being grumpy.

And also ignorant. Ignorant of the fact that recently Toddington had a serious break in that cost them some £60,000 of precious equipment. One part stolen from P and O Line the Merchant Navy Class loco represented over a 100 hours of work and will set their restoration back a year.. The thieves had evidently previously cased the joint and knew where all the security cameras were located. Perhaps some kind member of staff had shown them around in good faith.

So don't expect them to fall over themselves giving guided tours to people who can't be bothered to find out when they are open.[/QUOTE]
Read my post. I'm not ignorant. as I said, I was well aware of the thefts. I was also aware that trains weren't running. I've not been to another heritage railway and turned away in such a manner. Every other one I've been to welcomes visitors. If the GWR wants to build an iron curtain, so be it but IMHO, it is the looser.
Guess i'll have to stay a grumpy old man.

 

I think Steve has a fair point actually, although it is not clear from the original post exactly where the gates were located - at the entrance to the whole station site, or just access to the sheds?

Bills have to be paid whether trains are running or not, and if there is a way of creating income from casual visitors on non-running days then it would seem sensible for all railways/tourist sites to explore methods for this. Most of all, friendliness costs nothing, yet could reap dividends in cash or goodwill at a future date.

As for security concerns, if anyone wants to 'case the joint', it's not difficult to sneak over neighbouring land after working hours, or even to go on a public open day if you don't want to arouse suspicion.

Paul

 

Closed is closed which is fair enough, you shouldn't expect to get in, but I think the main point here is how come it was closed? This is August, peak season, even minor league railways are open every day during School summer holidays. If not steam I would have thought a dmu could be justified on an August weekday? Or at least gift shop and refreshments available? This is turning away cash that the railway is desparate for, the Cotswolds is an affluent holiday area - not a backwater and there would be a lot of passing trade at this time of year.

I visited Quainton at the beginning of July on a non operating weekday. For £5 I was able to look around, help myself to refreshments and use all the facilities. All this required was one member of staff, as the cafe was closed all refreshments were paid for at the gift shop desk, which in turn served as the ticket entrance. I think the staff were probably full time who would have been in anyway. For their troubles they earnt around £20 in all, plus a donation to the 'Wightwick Hall' fund. If only 1 person stopped by every day and did the same that week, that's an extra £100 for no additional outlay & manned by staff who were there already. The SVR gift shops are now open on a lot of non operating days and pick up a lot of business, particularly on the run up to Xmas.

 

I know the GWSR very well and it is not for nothing that it's known as the "Friendly Line in the Cotswolds." So your treatment is not, in my view, typical, but I'm not making excuses or critical observations on the GWSR or you. Things have changed of course due to the spate of thieving recently experienced. At one time Toddington Yard was open for all and sundry to come around and have a look at the partially restored scrap. Today that partially restored scrap is often thankfully in the form of fully restored artifacts and the rest of it is valuable equipment or spares so the GWSR has to protect it. I'm almost certain that it hurts the GWSR like hell to have to close the gates (my opinion of course as i'm not an active volunteer there) and the response you received is, I believe, somewhat out of character based on the GWSR's record. Nonetheless, they are right to do so if they are closed and have not the manpower to handle visitors. After all, as another poster said, if they are closed they are closed. Incidentally the whole operation is still volunteer run at present.

Not strictly on topic but I am reminded of our local ASDA supermarket last Easter Sunday. The store is closed of course so ASDA organises a car boot sale in aid of charity. We turned up, paid for our pitch and did really well. Mainly because loads of lemming shoppers turned up and some of them had retail seizure to such an extent that they had to buy something off somebody! ASDA's closed, they cried, but it can't be? Well it's Easter Sunday, that's the way it is and ASDA did advertise their hours of business. If I'd known just how retail hungry some of these muppets were I'd have bought loads of shareholders forms for 2807 with me!

 

I'm firmly with Steve on this one. I recall arriving at "the gates" a year or two ago. The gates were firmly locked, no public services running, but I could see "Truro" and the 9F in steam and moving about, apparently on "footplate" courses. I would gladly have parted with some cash in some form, be it parking, a cuppa, or in the gift shop. There were people about at the station, but because it was a non-public service weekday (in the Summer) there was no access. Someone came out in a car, and whilst the gates were opened briefly another motorist in station approach entered the site. The fellow who had just exited then walked back and padlocked the gates, leaving the hapless visitor to find someone else to let him out no doubt. Not very friendly I thought.

On the subject of site security, thieves are hardly going to access via the gates, there are open fields elsewhere!

Must go and see if they have posted this long awaited "Chicken Curve" update as yet......

 

I would guess that if it was a no-public service day it would be highly unlikely that 46118 would be able to spend any money at the shop or the cafe as both would probably be closed. I'm not saying that this is "right" but, unless the GWSR has enough volunteers to cover everything including non-public days then it will continue. I think both Steve and 46118 are saying that the GWSR need to be more flexible and they both make a point, but to do so would need more volunteers I guess.

Your last comment on Chicken Curve is the lowest form of wit 46118 and I think you should pay for it by making a donation to the GWSR fund!

 

Whilst mid week running is understandably harder where a line is staffed by volunteers with a normal day job, the summer holiday season is the time when its arguable that weekday running is as important if not more so than weekend running. Most of the holidaymakers in the Cotswolds will be changing over on a Saturday whereas a mid week day is the middle of their holiday and when they are looking for something to fill the day. Whether you have something running or just static displays with the gift and coffee shops open, its a good idea to make high season mid week opening a priority as far as possible in order to put something in the coffers.

 

According to their website, during high season they are only closed Mon & Fri, so there is certainly enough mid-week running to cater to most of the crowd, and all that plan ahead.

 

Indeed, several heritage railways, including the GCR, are closed on mondays and fridays, even during high season. However, given the rise of the "Staycation" in the UK it may be a weakness in their marketing strategy which they might want to address. It's all down to volunteers for most situations though!

 

The GCR may not be running trains and buffet, etc, shut but, unless things have changed recently, it is possible to buy a platform ticket and have a look around. Restricted access, yes, but not locked and barred. And generally willing to show a genuine volunteer from elsewhere around the workshop, which was my original point.

 

Steve et al.,

I think we are talking about two different issues here:

1. Should a railway where volunteers are working give access to visitors and fellow volunteers on closed days on an ad-hoc basis? (I believe is your original point.)
2. Should a railway officially open stations and workshops for viewing on non-operating days or extend their operating days?

As far as 1. is concerned, I don't think so. If volunteers and staff prefer to work without the potential distraction from visitors, it is their choice and should be respected. (OT: If they don't get the work done, they'll have the moans about "Why was loco 45678 not ready for xxx-day?" on here. Would the answer: "Oh, we did not have the time, we had to show people round who turned up when we were closed to earn a few quid" be acceptable? ;-) )
As far as 2. is concerned, it may be an option worth considering. But, as I said before, if either the resources are not available or the venture is not considered worth the effort, that's the choice of the railway in question again and should be respected as well.

There is a third option, though: You happened to have a grumpy person on the other end of the line who does not represent the usual line adopted.

Kind regards

Christoph

 

One thing that doesn't sem to be mentioned here is the issue of resources.

The complainant is not allowing for the fact that the GWR is essentially two railway operations until such time as Chicken Curve is resolved. The manpower just isn't available to entertain ad hoc visitors as he would like.

So to make judgement calls such as his, and publicise them on a forum like this, to that railways detriment is counterproductive to it getting back on its feet.

I would suggest that he make a contribution to the appeal forthwith to offset the financial effect of his detractions.

 

Like the OP, in the course of my work every now and again I am in the vicinity of a preserved railway which I have never been to before and, if I am, try to make time to go and have a look.

However, if it's on a weekday and the line is obviously closed, I understand that it's closed for a reason. So I'll have a look over the nearest bridge (or level crossing), see what I can see and leave it at that. This is exactly what happened at the GWSR a few years ago - I didn't feel the urge to complain. The railway was closed, so I couldn't get any closer - seems fair enough to me.

I certainly wouldn't be stamping my feet that the great ME was there and how dare they not let ME in for a look. That's rather arrogant and not a little petulant, don't you think?

I could understand it a little more if the OP had made the effort to go over there specially and had travelled a long didtance to do so, but he admits he only went there on the offchance, because he happened to be in the area!

As others have said, if I want the full preserved railway experience then I'll make the effort to visit a line when it is operating - even if it means waiting a couple of years until I can get chance to have a holiday or long weekend in the area.

 

Definitely not been grumpy. Its not a very good image to the paying public who will have a whole host of other visit options. They are unlikely to return if they are told to effectively go away at the gate. Every railway I've ever visited that is closed in the summer is not locked up to that extent. I cannot see how it could stop theft either as the front entrance is the last place they would go in, unless on a recce mission, in which case they would go on a very busy day to be able to move about unnoticed.

 

Coboman - do you and the OP also have a tantrum if you happen to go past an interesting-looking shop on a Sunday that you'd like to go in and it's closed? Does the fact that shops are closed at times bode so ill for their business and all those gloom-and-doom predictions about people not coming back that you're making?

Of course not. Not only do I think that the OP is being grumpy, I think you're both being rather childish.

I live in Scotland and am used to shops being allowed to open 24 hours. We have big branches of Tesco that literally never close. On trips south of the border I continually forget that you can't buy anything after 4pm on a Sunday in most places, but I cope. I don't start bashing my keyboard and crying "Nooo! We're all doomed, English supermarkets are turning away customers and it's all the law's fault".

Come on, get a grip. You know as well as anyone how reliant preserved railways are on volunteers and it's not always possible to spare the resources to show someone round, however self-important they believe themselves to be.

Sometimes places have to be closed, for no other reason that they do not have the manpower to be open and show people round or to keep an eye on various parts of the site. And, especially at the moment, I can imagine how likely the GWSR is to want someone they don't know from Adam poking around with nobody to keep an eye out. Perhaps there was just the one member of staff there that day and they were busy doing something else?

If the OP is so keen to see the GWSR, he will make the effort to return when he knows it's open. And if he can't be bothered to do that, he can't be that interested in the line, can he?

 

Firstly as a volunteer for quite a few years on the GWSR I thought I'd quickly explain why we don't tend to run on a Monday. Firstly historically Monday has always been the quietest day of the week with numbers much lower than other days. Secondly we have the volunteer situation. With the two railways, to operate a service we need a minmium of Duty Ops Officer, 2 ideally 3 signalmen, 2 guards, 2 TTis, 3 stationmasters, 3 booking office clerks, 2 drivers, 2 fireman / secondmen and 6 catering volunteers. This is a tall ask as you imagine for 5 days a week let alone 6 or 7. And thirdly and perhaps most importantly its a day and in fact the only day of the week as F&D courses tend to run on Fridays when any urgent maintainence work can be done on the track or carriages.

With regard to Toddington being shut, well its not ideal but its of course needed for security in this day and age as Toddington is a very open site. I also suspect the person Steve spoke to was one of the very few volunteers onsite that day and was probably there to man the phones and do e-mails, general admin tasks etc and thus wouldn't be able to leave the office so someone could have a quick look round.

 

Whos having a tantrum? I just said it didn't give a good image to the GP thats all. Idiot.