New builds - how many will ever really work?

I have to support Noel when it comes to the 5AT project. How many on here say that history doesn't stop at 1968? This is the proof of it. Unfortunately I have to be a nay-sayer regarding this project - as Noel says, we are too conservative. However if I had a euromillions win the 5AT project would be on my list to fund.

The post-60s history of steam locomotive development is actually fascinating, if you care to delve into it - Porta and others like him have developed plans that, given suitable investment to iron out the bugs, would create a breed of locomotive that at least in nations with ready access to coal would be competitive to diesel power - I appreciate that electric power is the ultimate, but in certain parts of the globe it will be a long time yet before we see it. Given the ever-rising price of that particular fossil fuel, there may yet be a chance for steam to have another day on less developed railways before the development of truly competitive green power that doesn't carry the necessary infrastructure costs of electric.

As an afterthought, I believe in the 80s there was a very real chance that steam locomotives could have made a comeback, albeit in a much different form to that which we are used to, in the USA. Don't write off steam power yet.

 

The problem with steam is water. Solve the water you can solve a come back for steam.
The infrastructure isn't there for Steam any more and where it is, in many parts of the world it is largely derelict.
don't forget the parts of the world that could use steam are largely devoid of water, therefore making it's ready supply expensive.
The cost of reinstating steam infrastructure on a national network, probably wouldn't be that different to stringing up chinese made electric wires...
The 5AT may be a good idea, for some parts of the world, but maybe it needs a DR designed condenser tender to be viable,
But a fleet of 5AT's viable in the UK (beyond a curiosity) no.

If the UK wanted to seriously re-enter the market for selling locomotives to developing countries, it would do well to focus on a "Basic Landrover" of a locomotive, cheap, tough and little electronics.

 

There is one already its called Llangollen. LMS Patriot, Betton grange, GWR railmotor and there may well be a fourth in the pipeline, dare i say it.........47XX.

 

Ah great, well i now no who you are. Well it was great to meet you and your other guys, and we hope to continue to raise money along side compass tours.

 

That puts me in the 1% then. I think most of us engineers would like to discover just how good steam traction might have become.

 

I'd say the Stanier Turbomotive was closer to that than the 5AT.

Can the ultimate potential of a steam locomotive really be explored with a locomotive design still rooted in Stephensonian principles...?

I ask that based on limited engineering knowledge, mind.

 

Well, I'd be up for a Leader and a Turbomotive.... if I had a spare £25m and nothing to spend it on. More seriously, did anything ever come of the idea to batch build something small and useful for preservation use - e.g. 57xx or J15 sized?

And if I were to build one - well, a J70, obviously. (In fact, two: one in BR livery and the other as a certain No 7...). Does anyone have any idea whether the J70 drawings exist?

 

Not quite, we've yet to see anything completed there yet........... Sure the railmotor, but the coach isn't new build[completely] and most of the power bogie was built at Tyseley/Newtons.
The only real people who can firmly say they have is the a1, and much of that was manufactured off site at places like Tyseley, Riley's, Ian Howitts, SVR, Meiningen etc and then assembled at Darlington.
Seems a bit pointless setting up a dedicated workshop when such facilities already exist, and they would undoubtedly continue to be used anyway as the skill base in places such as those listed above would be far superior to any new establishment who would have no experience in rebuilding locos let alone building new ones.

 

I don't think 'ultimate' has to mean 'largest'. I understand the narrow firebox was chosen for the 5AT design because it suits gas-producer working better than a wide one. I doubt 5AT will ever happen, but it makes fascinating reading: http://www.5at.co.uk/ The question of using a turbine rather than cylinders is interesting; the Turbomotive was the only UK unconventional loco of the inter-war years that was basically successful and better than its conventional peers. If there had been a fleet of them (with minor changes to the reverse turbine) they would have been survived to the end of steam.

 

True, I hadn't considered Llangollen and it would certainly make sense for prospective new build projects to draw on that expertise. That being said what I had in mind was more of a 'one-stop shop' - a place where potentially all the parts; boilers, frames, bearings, valve gear, wheel and cylinder block castings etc could be done, much like traditional locomotive works.

 

Incidentally, I meant to say Pete Waterman, not Roger Waters in my earlier post. It was late.

 

Now THERE'S a new-build project!!!! All we need to find now is someone prepared to put an Asbestos suit on and climb into the still glowing firebox...

 

Quite! They were able to burn lower grade, pulverised fuel that would have been of little use in a conventionally fired steam loco.

Foxy

 

This is what I mean - it removed the hammer blow - always a pain in the backside for the permanent way and locomotive engineer - it ran very smoothly as a result of this - and by all accounts was an efficient, reliable locomotive when handled carefully. I'm currently reading up on it for interest's sake, and the potential of the design to be more powerful and fuel efficient if built to modern standards (particularly regarding the forward and reverse turbines) is great.

Should one be built? Probably not, but as an exercise in engineering curiosity and historical significance (what prototype steam locomotive other than Britannia or Duke of Gloucester still exists, and in this particular unique vein?) I can think of few other locomotive designs from the past which have the potential to be more than the sum of their parts than the turbomotive. Possibly the W1 as rebuilt, but with a mechanical stoker and improved draughting/streamlined passages in the boiler, but few else if any.

You even have the advantage of five similar pacific locomotives to measure up and investigate if you wanted to build one!