Flying Scotsman

How many steam locomotives, of a comparable size, have the NRM actually overhauled themselves? 70013 was done elsewhere if I'm correct. I don't think Keith's points are completely worthy of your dismissal Ian.

What's surprising, and not being a reader of Steam Railway I don't know if this question has already been asked of the NRM, but how were these problems not picked up earlier when the boiler was in Bury and the frames in York? That is if these problems haven't arisen since the engine was 'unveiled' which begs the question of what happened after the unveiling in York?

 

Who overhauled 46229, 4771, 4468? I thought these were NRM jobs.

 

None of those were done recently though were they? Skills and experience get lost over time.

 

First up you didn't qualify your question by "recently" and skills can also be learnt over time. So are you saying the current team are incompetent or simply lacking the skills to do the job?

 

I think my original point is quite clear Ian.

Perhaps I'm saying both. Are you suggesting that cracks in the horn blocks and a main frame stretcher are a display of competent and high-quality engineering management?

 

Pistols at dawn gentlemen?

 

This pointless petty bickering is going to drag on miserably until the damn thing is running again isn't it?

 

Except the people who have been working on this overhaul have got a lot of experience. Again, I reiterate - you're not telling me Chris Beet (Leander) and Ian Riley (Riley & Sons engineering) don't have experience working on overhauls of large steam locomotives of this size? And that's before you realize who is in/has been in the team working behind the scenes at the NRM on the engine.

Fact of the matter is that something went wrong, and they are fixing it. These things happen. Too much of a blame culture already rots mainstream media and news corporations, why must railway preservation follow the trend...? Particularly as the premise that there's any element of inexperience or lack of understanding of the locomotive in question is ridiculous.

EDIT:

Very interesting PM. No names - essentially picking up on my point of "mistakes of previous owners" - with a response "no mistakes".

I might cite the welding up of the mudhole doors on Scotsman's A4 boiler as a "mistake by a previous owner", as reported by the Yorkshire post a few years back...

 

Not really Bryan. I have confidence in the team, Neil and others do not.

 

Agreed. Both Ian and Chris have a proven track record so why do people question their ability to do the job? As for the recently discovered problems, unless one knows the causes of these problems how can one apportion blame?

 

well all this is very good reading, I know why don't we blame Southall, sorry for this but Mr sac martin sucked me in, PS no mistakes I don't think I made a mistake, well like some one said , let them get on with it and good luck to them FISH7373 81C FITTER

 

I mentioned no names, out of courtesy. I see you have not done the same...!

Who said Southall? There are mistakes made by all of them, dating back as far as Pegler.

None of them were perfect, but all at least preserving the engine in some form. All with good intentions, in some way still contributing to the thoroughly worn out state she was in, by 2004 when sold to the NRM.

And a definite past mistake is the loss of the single chimney and blastpipe, which could have been (if in good working order) fitted at this overhaul.

In any event, you never did answer my question. Mudhole doors on the old boiler welded up by previous management? Is that not a mistake made by the previous management...?

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I think it's clear that the vitriol being aimed at the NRM once again is completely unnecessary. I've read some strange and ridiculously simplistic arguments on this site, but to query the people behind the overhaul of Scotsman - particularly the spotless reputations of two very high profile, and hard working people and their companies, is below the belt.

In all, I reckon this thread - and the other one - should be locked until the NRM see fit to tell us what's going on - without the media frenzy and the vast whipping up of emotions over this livery, that tender, and what blastpipe.

The one thing left utterly forgot throughout all of this is the simple fact that preservation needs Scotsman: and how all of this will be forgot by those who are orchestrating much of the vitriol once the engine is running, in order to report on its "latest success" and sell a few more magazines with 4472 on the front cover.

You heard it here first!

 

Because after all the money that's been spent on locomotive it's acceptable to sweep difficult questions under the carpet because they might be awkward? How much time and money has been spent on 4472 yet there are still faults being unearthed with it? It's far too late to still be blaming the former owners when the engine has been in pieces for years.

 

Cracks are strange things. Who is to say when these cracks on Scotsman started, especially if they have been caused by rust. They could be quite recent or been developing for some time. People seem to be assuming things on this forum.
One question I will ask though- Is the frame construction of an A4 similar to that of an A3?

 

This is Nat Pres, and this thread is spot on for how things are debated here.

I just hope that NRM, who I personally feel probably know what they are doing in this case, do not end up with yet another LNER loco.

Locos Never Ever Reliable.

Wink, joke, humour etc etc...

 

Yes they are similar but the A4 has a superior horn stay and this detail is the reason that the frames on this design gave much less trouble.

I hope that when the "tabloid dust" settles the NRM feels able to give details of the repairs needed and the reasons for the same because they are not the only ones wrestling with engines that are close to 90 years old.

The engine has had an interesting life to say the least but I wonder if the fitting of the air pump had anything to do with this. I am not sure how this item was installed but the A3 has only one major frame stretcher/stay, between the 2nd and 3rd driven axle, so you don't have many options unless you fit a supplementary somewhere.

 

Whether people are speaking wisdom or fetid Dingo's kidneys, denying them the right to say what they will smacks of dictatorship, and I don't like that.

 

Too right Jamie. One of the joys of democracy is that we are free to debate whatever we want. And there is no compulsion on anyone to join in, or even read any part of the debate.

Mostly.....................

PS. "fetted Dingo's kidneys".

Is that some Aussie delicacy at all?

 

Fetid Dingo's Kidneys - as defined by the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

A Dingo is a doglike creature found in Australia. A dingo kidney is what the dingo uses to extract waste from the dingo's blood stream. When the dingo dies the kidney, along with the rest of the dingo, becomes quite ripe. I mean it smells bad like you wouldn't believe. A fetid dingo kidney has no known value. Hmm, I think the exact phrase is 'A fetid dingo's kidneys'.

 

Thanks for that, Anthony...I think!

Back OT, I can fully understand the frustration on all sides over the delays in returning Scotsman to full health. I'm sure it'll be worth it though