New builds - how many will ever really work?

Many thanks. I know Ivatt allowed Marsh to take a full set of Atlantic drawings with him went he left Doncaster - can't imagine that sort of thing these days!

Dave

 

That would be like taking a full set of documentation from an Italian Formula 1 team and trying to sell it to a rival.. Of course that never happens!

 

OS Nock mentions in his history of the LMS that Stanier took a huge chest of GW drawings from Swindon to Euston when he joined the company. Interesting to wonder why it was allowed and who owned the documents.

 

I guess the GN and the LBSC weren't really in competition, so the GN didn't have anything to lose, though you suspect in more commercially-minded times, they may at least have wanted something for the intellectual property! The H1 atlantics were built by an external contractor with GN drawings annotated in red ink to show the variations.

DL Bradley notes the following variations between the Ivatt and Marsh atlantics:

(*) Piston stroke lengthened from 24" to 26"
(*) Boiler pressure raised from 175lb/sq.in to 200lb/sq.in - which in Bradley's view was seldom commented on by observers at the time or since, but probably had a bigger impact on performance than the lengthening of piston stroke
(*) The Brighton engines are longer by 15.25" behind the trailing axle. This gives a bigger cab and footplate
(*) Screw reverse on the Brighton engines rather than lever reverse
(*) A deeper firebox on the Marsh version
(*) Different shape cab, safety valve cover, chimney and curving of the running plate over the cylinders
(*) Bogie brakes fitted (these were removed quite early as, I believe, they were prone to causing the wheels to lock)
(*) Westinghouse brakes
(*) A Brighton style tender

The genesis of the H2 version - which the Bluebell is building, and which is essentially a super-heated H1, was interesting. By early 1911, Marsh was ill and he devolved responsibility for his job to Lawson Billinton while Marsh recuperated. When provision of new engines was considered by the LBSC Board, Billinton played safe by suggesting a revised Atlantic - it is likely that Marsh would have perpetuated his 4-6-2 tank engine design. The board agreed and the H2 atlantics were ordered, entering traffic between June 1911 and January 2012. Marsh's health, meanwhile, continued to decline and he resigned in July 1911, so essentially never saw first hand the success the locos became.

Tom

 

Sounds like your staying true to the original design, which is good; not that I mind that much, as long as it looks as similar to the originals as possible, but you know how some people can be. They'll never be happy with it unless it's as close as possible to the original design, and livery... Oh dear... I said the L word, I do apologise, I may have open the flood gates! Run for cover!!!

 

At least they can't argue about single chimneys and smoke deflectors =D

 

If only it were that simple! Maunsell changed the cab shape, cut down the dome and provided a new, shorter, chimney, primarily so that they would fit the SR composite loading gauge. (The LBSC had a more generous loading gauge than the LSWR and particularly more generous than the SECR). She'll be right for southern and BR liveries, but technically wrong if she ever goes into LBSC livery.

But on the serious point: she'll be pretty close to original, with just a couple of major deviations (notably fabricated, not cast, cylinders; the dimensional differences to frame spacers etc caused by having frames 30mm thick rather than 1 1/8in; and having coil springs on the drivers rather than volute). Hopefully all those things will be invisible. Those changes are essentially forced by the unavailability of modern materials (e.g. imperial size steel plate; volute springs) or the cost disadvantages of large casting one-off items. But within those limits, there's no point making major changes from the original, as it would just require making new drawings and be a recipe for unintended consequences.

Tom

 

Yeah, it make sense not to waste money on things especially when the difference isn't visible. I'm just glad that a Brighton Atlantic will steam once again, arguably one of the most elegant locomotives ever built.

 

Is there any reason why you didn't use 28mm plate as we have done with 82045? Readers might like to know it's only about 0.023" undersize which is within the manufacturing tolerance of 1 1/8".

 

30mm might be a more standard size than 28mm, may have cost a little less.

 

Nice touch! Is that the project completion date?

 

regards
noel

 

Oops - typo on my behalf!

Jan 2012 would be nice but I suspect it will be a bit after that. I wouldn't want to give a date, as (a) I'm only a supporter, not directly involved in the engineering and (b) it would be a hostage to fortune. But progress is pretty steady and a lot of the major components are on hand (e.g. wheels, frame, boiler, cyclinders, motion, tender frame...), so I'd like to think we are considerably more than halfway through the project.

Tom

 

That was my understanding (with regards the size) - I believe it was what was available at the time they were designed, but I might be wrong on that. I remember that the frames presented considerable problems in getting them manufactured; firstly to find someone to prepare and cut the steel; and secondly because they have a joggle between the front drivers and the bogie, and it was very hard to find anyone in Britain who would bend them to the desired radius - eventually they were done by RK Pridham.

Tom

 

Don't worry, I thought it was a neat little plug...sure It'll be ready when its ready!

 

Wish I'd been that linguistically accomplished!

Tom

 

Would it matter, mind? The umber livery would still look gorgeous on her. Yes, it would be technically incorrect, but surely closer to authenticity than, say, Royal Scot in pink or the 8F in crimson lake? Personally I'd ignore the true authenticity as the umber - if matched with the Billinton E4 - would be wonderful to see on the Bluebell.

 

Right with you. Every restoration is a compromise, it's just how acceptable that compromise is to the majority. It would certainly be acceptable to me!

 

To me, no it wouldn't matter - I'd really like to see her in Umber, even though cab, dome, chimney etc wouldn't be quite right. Even more, I'd like to see her in Southern Green as 2424 to match our Maunsell and pre-group coaches.

In the end it's only paint - we have several other engines in anachronistic livery (notably a certain Terrier that has run in Stroudley livery for the best part fo 50 years despite being an A1X; and another that is running with a number and livery she would have had in the Edwardian era, had she not been sold out of service some years before!) and no-one seems to mind too much. Not to mention a certain P class running round in a shocking blue colour

Tom

 

Yeah I'm with you on that one Tom, re:Beachy Head. As much as my Dad and I are BR livery fans and are well chuffed the loco is being outshopped in lined black first we would still sponsor as many loco parts as we can afford had the loco been in olive green or malachite green first. What is really disappointing was to read a letter in this month's Steam Railway magazine from from a lifelong member of the Bluebell saying that he wouldn't donate any money to the project simply because it was being outshopped in BR livery first. The Beachy Head project is a fantastic opportunity to bring back a loco, albeit in replica form, that should never have been scrapped in the first place and will be a great benefit to the Bluebell. In terms of the livery choice, my Dad's cousin is the Treasurer of the project and he told us the reasons why the loco is being outshopped in lined black first. Had the original ever survived the cutters torch and was bought by the Bluebell it would have been in this livery when it first arrived on the railway. A number of the members who actually saw the Brighton Atlantics and 32424 only remember seeing them in BR livery so from a marketing point of view it makes sense to promote the project as a BR era Atlantic first and to also appeal to the enthusiasts fraternity. Finally once the loco is finished monies will still need to be raised to pay for ongoing repairs and future overhaul. So a BR livery Atlantic will generate much more income from the photo charter business than say an Umber one and will also be appealing as a visiting loco to other railways, I believe the Swanage has already enquired about a future visit, so steaming fees will be generated. The loco will carry a form of Southern Green livery during the second part of it's boiler ticket. My dream is that hopefully if we could pinch those two blood & custard Bulleid & Maunsell carriages that the VCT have just finished and bring them down here we could form a five coach set of blood and custards, with the 3 Mk1's we already have, and pair them up 32424.