Liverpool Road and the Ordsall Curve.

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

I could go in length about my own thoughts on here but I will not.

There are two options being considered at this stage. Network Rail are looking at both as both are feasible and practical to do. They are also now aware of the friends of the museum after going to the consultation yesterday. Anyone who knows the history of the site will know why it is vital that the friends are round the discussion table.

I will update this later but I did a round trip to MoSI yesterday from London to discuss with them the chord and now need to catch up much needed sleep.

Duncan

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

If we consider for a moment that the link is going to go ahead, could MOSI turn this into a serious investment opportunity, along the lines of Chasewater and the motorway?

In my opinion the new station and shed at Chasewater gave the railway far more than what it had previously. Does MOSI and/or its volunteers have any "pie-in-the-sky" future plans that could happen a lot sooner as a result of this?

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Restore that SAR Garratt in 4ft 8 perhaps .. that might get around a curve to the new Victoria line...run it on a demonstration train to a platform in Manchester Exchange ?

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Convert Agecroft to air brakes and top and tail the train with Planet. The coaches and number 3 of the trio have been through victoria under steam before. Evidence:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24467327@N03/2344286626/

As a volunteer my thoughts (Guard and Rail Maintenance)

Something practical for mosi is the granada site. Over a third of the collection mosi own can not be displayed due to space. It would also free up space in Liverpool Road Station for a much improved exhibition to the Liverpool & Manchester Railway Story, The history of the friends and how they saved the site in the late 1970s. Getting one of the tin sheds would allow rail operations to have a much improved space for workshop related work and additional storage space to increase the collection.

just a few ideas and as stated earlier my own thoughts.

Duncan

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Further to the last post I will endeavour to follow and answer queries where possible as this develops but you should be aware that I will very shortly be far less active on this forum. This is largely due to now being a lot busier with work as a public health engineer amongst other things. I am subscribed to this thread and will try and be on the forum from time to time.

As far as the immediate future the important thing is that you consider filling in the feedback for the proposal. Network Rail are keen to have opinions from a wide range of people and viewpoints.

As to what is happening at the moment generally at MoSI:

-steam will be returning to the powerhall with the mill engines running once more. Work was well under way last time I was there.
-start on the refurbishment of the gas and electric gallery starting to be looked at:

http://mosienergygalleries.blogspot.com/2011/05/welcome-to-our-new-blog.html

Last and my no means least will be the MoSI Railway nine day running for the October Half term, dates should be on the website.

All the Best

Duncan

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

A reminder that for those interested in completing feedback for the scheme this can be done through the link below (scoll down to electronic feedback link):

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/Ordsall-Chord.aspx

Regards
Duncan

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

I am most impressed by this report, it seems to me to be just the thing Manchester needs. I have noted that there is no mention of an impact on MOSI and a quick look at Google Earth shows that there needn't be one.

Regards

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Orion - what are you smoking?

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

I don't smoke any substances and my view is a perfectly reasonable one. Manchester, and the north-west of England, badly needs this infrastucture project in order for the city to move ahead. Forty years ago I had to leave Manchester because of limited career opportunities during the run-down of the engineering industry in the north and unemployment in the city now is far too high after the Coalition's cutbacks. This transport infrastructure project will improve travel and assist in getting unemployment down and keeping it down.

Also it is clear it will have little or no impact on the museum, which is important, but of less importance than getting, and keeping, people off the unemployment register.

I think, with respect, that you need to have wider horizons.

Regards

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Orion - If you think this scheme is either wanted, needed or good news for MOSI then its little wonder you moved away.

The proposal is a warmed over idea that was rejected thirty years ago, that does nothing to regenerate Manchester; that does nothing for the Calder Valley Route; that betrays completely the principle of pathing all long distance services via one station; that does nothing as regards the changing fortunes of East Manchester; that places even more traffic on the Deansgate to Piccadilly section; that is part of a scheme that requires more flyovers than a Los Angeles cloverleaf - exactly what finished the first Picc Vic scheme; that removes journey opportunities and frequency from Warrington, and destroys the one hundred and eighty year old link that the first railway station in the world has with the national network - is that enough for starters?

A Blind Lane Curve re-opening would resolve Picc to Vic and take in Eastlands - link to the Calder Valley from Picc and link to Ashton too. New platforms alongside the Picc trainshed would remove much cross throat traffic, and re-opening and extending Mayfield westwards creates four or more platforms. No extra traffic along the Oxford Road corridor - retention of Warrington as a well served inter regional calling point,

No - the Ordsall Curve is a consultants' fee earner - Blind Lane an elegant and simple railwayman's answer - to all the aspirations that the Northern Hub seeks. There's always more than one way to skin a cat!

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Still trying to get my head around this blind alley proposal...
If I have it right...everything from west Yorkshire trundles to Victoria.. Reverses to Piccadilly.. Reverses again and crosses the station throat to get to the airport...
Everything from Liverpool goes into Victoria.. Round to Piccadilly, reverses and crosses the station throat... Or skips Victoria and remains as is, but demolish Mayfield, the front of a hotel and hang some bridges sideways over a major main road ?.. You end up with a station bigger than Waterloo and passengers with a walk between platform 1 and Mayfield, being longer than that of Terminal 1 to Terminal 3 at Manchester Airport ?
I fail to see what's gained here.. Everything still crosses the front of Piccadilly, or remains the same.. Except extra platforms at Piccadilly and Mayfield ?...
East lands station..nice idea.. But routes from Victoria could cover it adequately already.

My reading of the plan is about relieving station congestion, by removing the need of everything crossing the front of Piccadilly every few minutes... And relieving congestion with passengers... Many journeys needlessly end at Piccadilly, when they could just as much end at Victoria.. And congestion at Salford Crescent and Inconvienience at several stations between Preston and Bolton where passengers change already to reach their ultimate Manchester station.

The original reason for this mess was the windsor link and the desire to rundown / close Victoria by diverting everything via Piccadilly instead... Make efficiencies on a shrinking network, The mass increase in rail travel and subsequent turnaround wasn't predicted.

Electric suburban services will make a big difference at Manchester Victoria when introduced... But Liverpool transpenines services will still be DMU's.. Which needn't take the Piccadilly route and historically never did.

You could of course do the "do little" option... Reinstate the missing platform at Oxford road and terminate some stuff there... Of course the new chord to Victoria introduces that possibility and gives extra capacity at a very minimal cost... Certainly less than a leviathan bridge over the London road.

As for Liverpool road.. Hasn't see a passenger train in decades and it's history or archaeology are not threatened. Mayfield... I am amazed this hasnt been demolished, may be it's future lies in the same fate as Curzon street as a future terminus of HS2 ?

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Now I know why you are an IT consultant - all the facts, but in an unintelligible order! Blind Lane, not Blind Alley young man!

This proposal needs all of two road overbridges, and a few hundred cube of fill to achieve - that's it. No flyovers or dive unders which abound in the Network Rail paper.

The re-use of the existing station at Mayfield is similarly good use of derelict state assets that already exist, and are in surprisingly good condition and suitability for renovation.

Where did I ever mention everything going to Victoria then Piccadilly? - Everything goes to Piccadilly - thence to final destinations.

For the airport and destinations south and south east - into new platforms A-D alongside the north elevation of the Piccadilly train shed - no crossing of the station throat there, thence along the viaduct to Longsight and Slade Lane.

For Preston and destinations west and north - Picc to Vic via Eastlands!

Simples! and obviously far too simple for some.

For Liverpool via Warrington Central - two whole movements each way per hour - yes - cross throat workings - shock horror!

In the 21st Century we have things called travelators or even lifts - you may have encountered these. NR are proposing two new platform faces. Using Mayfield could give four or five. thence west beyond the existing facade and rejoin the Oxford Road line at the A6 - no need to knock down a single building. Mayfield is no further from Metrolink than platforms A - D so there's no crisis from any drama creation no matter how others might try to protray something that exposes their scheme as pie in the sky civil engineering budgeting. We have been here before forty years ago. That scheme died under the weight of its budgets - so will this.

The principle behind Windsor Link and the Hazel Grove Chord was, and should remain, cross platform interchange between services - not cross town, and to suggest that there is any less flexibility or capacity for electrification in this option is to reveal the utter bankruptcy of an opposing stance, as there is just as much, if not more, and certainly more journey options with less inconvenience.

New and shiny is a stance far too beloved of some - realistic and affordable is what should be put forward in today's straightened economic circumstances, or we risk failing by lack of achievement as schemes prove unaffordable and fail to achieve their purpose - for either their proposers, or users!

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Can't help thinking Mayfield road was created due to over crowding at London road... 100years ago and here we are again trying to solve the same problem with similar tools.
how much is the cost of reinstating the former wood head platforms (I am assuming that's what your referring to), plus the two bridges, plus an overhaul of mayfield, and the addition of two new through platforms and car parking for all those passengers.. Especially as you just lost piccadillys main car park... Oh and.. Apparently most of the land around mayfield is not owned by BRB any longer... And there are several plans out there to redevelop the site...
Ok you end up with Manchester megadilly, sucks if you want to goto Victoria or if you arrive at wood head platform 1 with suitcases to drag over to mayfield platform 6... Station trollies just aren't how they used to be, try explaining to passengers why they need a 30minute connection, 20 of which your walking (or travelating)

It'll have to be some strong beams to hold 2 platforms and two tracks parallel to and on top of Fairfield street.

I still say Blind Alley sounds too cheap, the alternative is 1 viaduct and finished.

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

If the mainline connection is left out for one minute.

Aside from much better solutions economically, environmentally and socially there are other issues for this location.


The proposal would lead to the demolition or alteration of Stephenson Bridge. A structure nominated twice under two separate world heritage bids. There are reasons it is Grade 1.

Regards
Duncan

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

As to whether the rail infrastrure of Manchester and the North-West needs to be improved it seems to me to be self evident and requires no further comment from me. On the issue of MOSI I didn't say anything about it being good news for the museum, only that I didn't see it doing any harm.

And on the topic of my moving away from Manchester in February 1971 it was because of long-term unemployment. I had been employed by Simon-Carves in Cheadle Heath but they ran out of money in August 1970 and fired 250 engineers and technicians in one afternoon. This totally destroyed the employment market for these grades in the Manchester area, an employment market that was pretty moribund anyway. I took my redundancy pay and looked elsewhere. A temporary job in a man's clothing shop was the stop-gap but it was clear that something and somewhere else was needed. London at the time was booming so I moved south, financing the move with the redundancy pay. My salary with Simon-Carves had been £1k in London it became £2.2k at a stroke, a difference which reflected the buoyancy of the labour market, not the cost of living.

I still feel that I'm a Mancunian, and I still miss the city, but Manchester needs to move on as it will with these proposals; and with respect, so do you.

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

It would appear that the problems at Piccadilly station throat are mostly caused by trains to and from the Airport station. Has anyone ever produced any passenger figures for the number of people travelling direct to the airport from, lets say, Leeds, Sheffield and Preston. Is there a need for all these services to go to the Airport station?
I also notice that there is no direct service from Birmingham to the Airport. It is change at Crewe and get the local stopper.

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

As a regular traveller from the North East into Piccadilly - but not beyond - I would say that on average around ten per cent stay on board - but that's just a personal observation!

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

My observations as an occasional commuter from Heald Green to Piccadilly is that the trains are pretty full from the airport but a good many, about a quarter, of the passengers are for stations beyond Piccadilly. The train then fills up again at Piccadilly, this being particularly true if the train stops at the MSJ&A platforms. Whether this means that most of the passengers are commuters to the city centre or are changing to other services I couldn't say, but the MSJ&A platforms at Piccadilly always seem to be overcrowded with people while the rest of the station is underused.

The trains to Yorkshire, which reverse in the main station and are then obliged to travel right over from the south side to the GC lines - so blocking the station throat, seem to be less heavily patronised then the trains destined for Lancashire destinations.

Regards