Folkestone Harbour Branch

Going by the sheer hate that Maunselman shows, i must have done him some harm at some time, his posts are bordering on the offensive, i try to answer as truefully as possible and to answer his questions i agree that the RLA made mistakes in the early stages with plans that even i questioned, can i clear up one mis conseption it's a regeneration sceme, not a preservation plan, the aim is for a community railway , not a preserved railway, we were told by National rail that if we went down the steam hauled, paint it green route our business plan would not pass

to hand it to sustains? well ask the bodmin people about how they found sustrains like to deal with ?we cant do anything about the back yard setting, or the yob s but we could try to make folkestones neglected harbour area a place to visit and help to improove the area phus making it less yobish, Maunselman, how would you improove the area then as you seem to have the answers and buldozing the locals into the sea isnt an option, would turning the trackbed into a road or footpath improove the area? i cant see how, whats needed is for there to be an attraction , i would like to see the station become a museum not just of the ww1conections but of folkestone , coupled to the railway with part of the site for other things such as open air markets , art galleries etc

 

Maunselman's postings are to the point rather than offensive

 

Sheer hate? Errr I don't know you so why would I hate you? Don't understand the rationale of the statement. I don't actually hate anybody (though as a born and bred Palace fan any Brighton fans may come close). What is offensive about questioning what is a dubious scheme to preserve 3/4 mile of derelict trackbed in a run-down town that doesn't have much real prospect of success?

I know Folkestone fairly well and particularly the harbour area. It is quite a nice place with the country walk, the beach and the whelk stall, oh and I forgot about Chumpy's chip-shop (absolutely sublime). However a 3/4 mile of track up a fearsome gradient behind a small Peckett or cl37 sitting in a knackered former Gat-Ex Mk2 that is badly painted in primer and undercoat a preservation scheme does not make. The main-line specials did bring many folk there and they had an interesting destination to go to but they were a few times a year and the branch was a 10 minute time slot in a full day out. There is no parallel between having Ollie Cromwell trundling down there and running a preserved railway.

The preserved railway has to be sustainable and support itself, grow and prosper. it must have space to grow and space to put facilities for engineering. It needs adequate funding, volunteers and support from the locals, public and enthusiasts. Can you really see any of this occurring here? Is there really that potential? The community railway - Folkestone Harbour to where? Are the R1s going to be mainline certified so they can run to Ashford for commuters. How many people who live near the harbour station actually commute anywhere?

This branch is not a viable scheme. Other than the dreamed up name there is no USP. A big hill passing through Kent's answer to Beirut and a station sandwiched between a harbour and a derelict ferry terminal - Still, look on the bright side there is Chumpy chips, the Whelk stall and a couple of good pubs. Plus there is the Leas Lift which will bring at least another 100 visitors a month.

How would I regenerate Folkestone? That is beyond my capabilities. That there is need for massive regional funding and government backed initiatives is not in doubt. That is also something for KCC to worry about.

Martin, this ain't personal mate its just common sense. All the effort in raising funds for this could be diverted into getting over the A21 at Robertsbridge, digging the tip at Imberhorne helping the Glocs-Wors repair itself. There are loads of fantastic schemes that add value to the preservation movement that are crying out for money. Another two bob and a lollipop scheme that someone has dreamt up because they have fallen out with someone at the original railway they worked out helps nobody. This scheme is like the proverbial parrot......

 

dead sir!

 

And the Middleton had the advantage that it was not in Folkestone. Folkestone may not be one of the Cinque Ports but it is certainly Kent's sink port!

 

Maunsell Man,

I agree with you on this one. But some people can't see the wood through the trees and will never consider their idea commercially wrong.

 

Probably not. But it did and it's doing quite nicely, thank you.
Railway preservation is not something that can be neatly packaged into a Business plan or any other piece of common sense. Its success or failure is largely determined by the tenacity and determination of those advocating it, along with a little bit of goodwill, along the way. Two extremes in this respect are the original dreams of Swanage and Peak Rail, both of which essentially started with nothing.

I'm not familair with the Folkestone branch but a simple Austerity & two coach operation over one mile at weekends with volunteers doesn't need much in the way of cash to make it work. There are plenty of small lines that work quite satisfactorily in this way. It may not be everybody's cup of tea but that is the nature of heritage railways.

 

Swanage has got the Park and Ride scheme, goes to a seaside resort where you can't park has a lovely run and several stations - and some good locos. Peak Rail is in the Peak National park - a major tourist trap with stunning scenery. Folkestone Harbour branch has got scenery (no), Reasonable run (no), space for engineering facilities (no) and so it goes on. Swanage is one of the top lines of the UK both in importance to the local economy and atmosphere. I would hazard a guess that Swanage hasn't yet achieved a fraction of its potential as a community line as well as a preservation site.

Don't know a massive amount about Middleton other than the story about it starting as a freight operation with some university students but it was about at a time when there was much to preserve and there wasn't some major schemes on the doorstep. Its still here though and fair play to it.

The new buzz word nowadays is community rail. This has been used on here several times. Does the community at Folkestone want this community railway? What will they do with it? They didn't use it when it was open before.

 

I don't know enough about Folkestone, but a scheme with the characteristics described has real potential .... to damage the reputation of the heritage railway movement in general and further depress what sounds like a pretty downbeat area. That said I genuinely admire the effort going in.

Just a thought, but wouldn't a miniature or narrow gauge railway on the track bed be instantly both more viable and more attractive? I mean if there are enough people who really want to see a railway there? It would even be possible to have a footpath alongside too.

 

That can fairly describe Middleton, which also probably has the smallest 'depot' of any standard gauge line. Keep it simple and you don't need much space.

My reference to Swanage & Peak Rail was to illustrate that, from similar beginnings with equal potential, their fortunes have been like chalk & cheese, due largely to how they were driven and their support. It wasn't to compare them with the Folkestone scheme.

 

I know Folkestone well and would regenerate it by cleaving it off with a giant angle grinder, towing it to mid Atlantic and opening the seacocks. Unfortunately, as froth has a habit of always coming to the surface, I fear it would not be the end of the FHB fantasists...

martinbutler - I would be grateful if you would extend me the courtesy of a reply to the question that I asked you here? Or is it that, as I strongly suspect, you have no answer that makes any sense in the real world? Trotting out the same old enthusiast wibble does nothing to convince me that the scheme has any foundation for success whatsoever.

By the way, using the situation with Sustrans and the Bodmin & Wenford as an example is completely irrelevant, given that the B&W has all the appeal (steam trains, countryside, length of journey) that the FHB can never have. It's like trying to prove a point by comparing fish and custard.

As Maunsellman says, let Sustrans have a go - at least it'll be a whole lot more fun freewheeling down the thing on a bike than creeping down in a tatty Mk2.



Perhaps The Blinkered To Reality Line would be a more accurate title? :blabla:

 

OK this is my last posting, ive had enough of going in circles , there are a lot of people , local and out of town who support the RLA , mostly because no one else has come up with a viable plan to regenerate this part of Folkestone

you can not extend a branch that ends on a pier or change the route or the area it is in , they are fixed points

preservation has always been about doing the un- doable how did most railways start and where are most now

i will never win over those on here who have closed minds , and i dont want to , ive got better things to do with my time such as my day time job helping the KESR and my other love which is kit cars so dont expect me to be active on here from now on i can see why so many former members have left this forum

 

I have real concerns about the proposed “Remembrance Line”.

I must say that I applaud the efforts to retain the infrastructure. The plan to remove the viaduct, station and track bed was short sighted and IMHO would have done little to regenerate the the rather run down area it occupies. Furthermore, if the port owners ever get their act together and manage to attract more business an important artery to the port would have been lost.

The down side however, is that the line runs from nowhere to nowhere. The port is not convenient to the town centre, and the other end of the line is in a run down carriage stabling area. Who in their right mind is going to fork out for a quick 5 minute blast up the hill, followed be an even faster coast back to the harbour. I just cant see the mathematics adding up. Just how much will punters pay to have a quick chug up the hill. It may kill a few minutes if you are unlucky enough to have to spend a day in Folkestone, but it will never become a day out venue like many other preserved lines

The lack of a direct line connection to the mainline also hampers the excursion market with all trains having to perform a reversing manoeuvre in order to enter the branch.

I realise the preservation movement is full of projects that were deemed to be a project too far. But this project has to be at the top of the list

 

Martin, please don't sulk and take your ball away. Problem is that some schemes aren't viable as preserved lines as an entity due to location and circumstances. I guess that I maybe I am a few years older than you and have maybe seen a bit more of life - enough to stop me supporting schemes that don't even come close to ticking all the boxes to make a viable concern. You work at the KESR, what a wonderful place that is. It has ambition to get back to Robertsbridge, has interesting motive power and fantastic rolling stock. It is a gem of a place. The RHDR is also fantastic as is the Bluebell just over the border. If you want something more rustic there is the East Kent that desperately needs help and Bredgar etc etc etc. Do we really need another scheme in the South East? All the time and effort put into rolling RL out, organising it and mobilising people, funds etc could make a big difference to anyone of these schemes.

I do actually agree the viaduct and bridge make the harbour special. As such the Remembrance Line people have done a good job and stopped it being swept away. The Harbour is potentially a gem of a location with all sorts going on like the Skabour Festival amongst others. With the right and massive regeneration funds that could be offered through central / European regional funding schemes it can realise its full potential. Running a couple of Mk2s up the hill with a Peckett tank will not achieve it.

Its not that I have a closed mind, its maybe more the fact I have a realistic view of life. The country is creaking under the recession to end all recessions. Better we consolidate what we have got than spread the funds and bodies even thinner. if we don't we may lose schemes and projects where thousands of volunteer man hours and countless thousands of pounds have been spent. Nobody at-all wants that. Im sorry you have taken it personally - it wasn't meant like that.

 

are you infering, advocating the idea that Peak Rail was(is ) bad managed since its beginnings (this project was launched in 1978-1980)
I think so!
regards
noel

 

If that's what you think, then fine. I was merely suggesting that how a project progresses is down to good and tenacious management and how they are supported.

 

So I was right with my previous post then? Why bother answering genuine questions from people who, as Maunsell man says, have more experience and a less blinkered view of what constitutes a succesful preserved line, when it's so much easier just to stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalaIcan'thearyou".

And therein lies a very real problem. It's not an attitude that's going to convince all the organisations and people with deep pockets you're going to need onside, is it?

Well said.