Liverpool Road and the Ordsall Curve.

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

I am a fairly regular passenger from Liverpool to Piccadilly and beyond, but I have never really taken any notice of the numbers of passengers travelling to and from the Airport on other trains, except the Liverpool-Man Airport train, which I sometimes use to Piccadilly. I have to say that this train does carry a fair number of passengers going to/from the airport at times. Obviously, these are mostly tourists and the train travels over the fast route across the Moss, rather than via Warrington.
Orion, in your post you highlight how busy platforms 13 and 14 are, which is quite correct. This is due to the number of trains that are stopping at these platforms now. What do you think the situation on the platforms would be like if the chord goes ahead and the number of trains using these two platforms is increased dramatically? I reckon there could be a Health and Safety issue to be looked at with regard to customer safety on the platforms.

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

The chord option includes two extra platforms, 15 and 16 presumably, at Piccadilly, built out over Fairfield Street, and allowing a 3 minute headway to Oxford Road instead of the present 4 minute headway. So in theory there should be less crowding on the platforms.

Dave

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

The impression I got from the report was that two additional platforms were projected at the MSJ&A side of Piccadilly, these being thought necessary not just to accommodate the increase in passengers but to support the view that increased platform accommodation here was essential to realise the maximum potential of the South Junction line. Apparently this line is not working at full capacity, but it will need re-signalling to improve the headways if there are four platforms.

I would imagine that if these proposals are implemented that the Yorkshire, ie Trans-Pennine, trains will be routed from Stalybridge via Miles Platting, Victoria and the Ordsall Curve to Piccadilly and the Airport. This might seem a long way around but Victoria is a lot closer to much of the financial and commercial centre of the city than Piccadilly. It might also mean that it would be possible to route trains via the L&Y route through Summit Tunnel as well as the LNW route through Stanedge.

I am honestly at a loss to understand why there is so much opposition to these proposals, the benefits to the city and to the north-west are so great and there are so many jobs that need to be created in the region especially now the public sector has been so savagely cut.

To get back to the original title of the thread, I cannot help but feel that this project is not a threat to MOSI but the budget cuts most definitely are. They are also, of course, a threat to the wellbeing of Manchester too, as so much employment in the city and the surrounding region is directly and indirectly dependant on the public sector.

Regards

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

David - are you wilfully missing the point or what?

MOSI is the world's first mainline passenger terminus and is preserved as such as part of as larger museum. The Castlefield Curve - which goes nowhere near Ordsall - will destroy this and provide nothing new in transport opportunities except more traffic over the two available roads from Deansgate to Chancellor Lane.

Am Eastlands based scheme ticks all the flexibility options, provides up to seven more platform faces, puts the stadium area on the rail map, connects Picc and Vic and reduces the traffic call on the Oxford Road corridor - and in the final accounting costs less too - What's not to like, or not constructive, in having an alternative and more user friendly - cross station interchange as against cross town - view of traffic opportunities? and MOSI remains rail connected with its running line not reduced to such a short length as to be impotent.

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

No, I'm not missing the point, wilfully or otherwise, it's just that I disagree with you and your passionate advocation of the Eastlands scheme.

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

That, sir, is your privilege - I prefer being right - in the end.

Its just that its often not a popular stance at the outset, and it often takes years to prove - but with 20 - 20 I have this unfortunate habit of coming out with the angels.

CYA!

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Pompous conceited windbag

Down here for the "Report" button
v
v
v

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Quite right Frank, dont these people know you are an expert on the 21st century rail industry?

Chris

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

All you need is patience boys - you can call me names then!

Have you actually read the schedule of civil engineering that this scheme needs - it makes Picc Vic look like Baykoland - and that got cancelled due to cost in economic conditions that look like paradise in today's world.

I prefer reality

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

I'm siding with Orion on this one.
I hope to see a train some day from Manchester Airport to Rochdale, without changes or reversals.
I also hope to see a London - Manchester train arrive without having to wait at Ardwick for a 2 car DMU from Oxford Road to Ashburys getting in the way.
I also hope that Mayfield see's realised potential as a HS2 destination station.
As someone else pointed out.. to arrive on a medium distance service from the south at Manchester Victoria, saving me a 20 minute tram ride has hidden benefits.
I also hope to revisit the MOSI when this is in place and see a tank engine trundle out of the museum and unto the L&M station platform as it has done for years.
Who knows... maybe even Virgin Trains may terminate something at Victoria (ok unlikely) ?

The role model for this tri-station configuration exists, Berlin pulled down it's wall 20 years ago and now has cross town services every few minutes and what an example that is... I highly recommend a trip across Berlin's main stations, from Zoo to Hauptbahnhof to Friedriche Strasse to Ostbahnhof. It's time to pull down the Manchester Iron Curtain and give the city an integrated, electrified transport solution, that doesn't require reversals and diversions across town.

Fortunately this forum is well removed from those making the decisions.

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

I do have one question to ask.

Assuming Network Rail have taken a reasonable stance in going for a solution that ticks as many boxes as possible while keeping costs within defined targets, why would their decision not to go for the Ardwick option (which I would love but acknowledge that a disused railway built 100 years ago might not be an useful off-the-shelf solution for a 21st century railway) would be for anything other than rational reasons? Network Rail are not going to propose a solution that is deliberately perverse, it patently does hit the requirement to keep the station throat at Piccadilly clear of unnecessary conflicting movements and as beguiling as the Ardwick Curve solution may be, it doesn't seem to stack-up.

I'd trust the judgement of the professionals because they actually have to spend the money and be held accountable.

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Apologies, make that delusional pompous conceited windbag.

Reality? :lol:

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

There is one aspect that may need addressing, at the moment all Calder Valley services terminate at Victoria in the bay platforms 1 and 2 so they have to crossover Victoria's station throat either outside the station or at the top of Miles Platting bank. If Victoria is to become a lot busier this could become a problem.
I do have to agree that the Calder Valley doesn't seem to benefit much from the scheme. One suggestion (OK where's the money?) has been to extend the Liverpool electrification to Rochdale, then if the wires are also extended from Leeds to Bradford Exchange one day it would be a no-brainer to complete Calder Valley electrification. I can't see it happening in my lifetime though, and would you really electrify Calder before Standedge?

Dave

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

There again it may not happen! Minister casts doubt: http://www.rail.co/2011/10/26/rail-minister-casts-doubt-on-northern-hub/

Dave

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

The Ordsall Chord is the one project that will be happening, its already funded and the consultation process is underway.

When reading that article its worth remembering that the Northern Hub isnt one project but the name given to a whole raft of proposed upgrades still under development - some likely to be more cost effective than others, or made unncessary by future upgrades such as the proposed TPE North electrification in CP5. It was never an all-or-nothing scheme which needed everything to be approved.

Chris

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Very interesting comment, given the fact that neither Salford nor Manchester City Councils have not received any planning applications for the work. Indeed, the only railway related planning application for the area received by Salford City Council is for work a little to the west by Ordsall Lane Junction. This is related to some bridge work for the forthcoming Edge Hill to Manchester Victoria electrification and has been passed.

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Ooohh! He MUST be wound up!

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Thats hardly a surprise, its not going to open till 2016 and i read somewhere that a planning application wont be submitted till the beginning of 2013 - such complex projects take time, and probably explains why its being progressed before a decision is made about the other Northern Hub projects.

Edit: the timeline can be found on page 10 of this document. The anticipated submission date to the IPC (Infrastructure Planning Commission) is spring 2013.

Chris

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

It's difficult to imagine that such an important project won't get planning permission.

Regards

 

Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

Under normal circumstances I'd agree with you, but when you are dealing with a Grade 1 listed structure, you never know.