6201: 75th anniversary of speed record Special To Glasgow!!!

There are no loco release roads at some termini - or NR are too so and so lazy to run specials into those roads that have them. There are no available locos within100 miles that can run in and drag vacuum braked stock out, and its against "the rules" to propel out prior to running round - so on some tours you have to bring your release loco along with you.

So - it either follows or is coupled into the train

Now as the loco has a driver, and is running throughout the tour, we aren't talking about either driver's hours payments - because they must be being paid, or any vast amount of fuel between notch one and light engine running, so we must be talking about track access charges for a duff and red diesel per mile.

The difference is?????

 

The simple answer to the diesel thing is it saves a path and is insurance on an arduous day.
Saving a path is nothing new.
On the Central Wales line a banker on a freight would be put on the front of the next down train to return it to Knighton also in steam days how many double headers were necessary and how many were for convenience in getting a loco to where it was needed without taking up an extra path.

The one that puzzles me though is turning the train, Why? it seems an extraordinary practice which to some posters on here is infuriating.

Cheers Dave

 

The difference is... and I'm not a WCRC man or VT man, but suspect like I said, time of year operational contingency, light loco pathing. The railway is no longer a world where railwaymen can be left to get on and organise things. Also at the moment Glasgow Central is a platform short so maybe the dwell time in one of the four remaining useable long platforms is at a premium.

What appears very simple on the outside is often much more complex, the two trains involved with this charter alone probably clashed with a 1000 other services when it was bidded into the system.

Mike Wylie

 

Have anymore tickets been sold since Tyseley Open Day?

Are there only 5 platforms for a city like Glasgow?

 

I think you'll find that turning on the Shields Road triangle is more effective with a top 'n tail operation rather than find a yard with turn-round facilities. When the 60163 tour operated from Crewe in September the turn round was easily achieved with a Class 67 provided by EWS/DBS using (I presume) spare siding space at Polmadie depot.

 

Central has 13/14 platforms on the high level (haven't been for a while so may be incorrect now) but only a certain number can be used for long trains - 1,2,9 and 10 perhaps - certainly 1 and 2.

 

The diesel doesn't necessarily need to have a driver on board - a travelling fitter can suffice I believe, even if providing the ETS. I believe a light locmotive may be required to have a second person on baord, so it could be 2 staff not one.

AFAIK, there is no "path fee" on Network Rail - you could argue there should be to stop lots of short trains being run instead of fewer longer ones because the general fare pool is split by number of trains, not number of setas, operated! Open Access Operators should be paying Variable Track Access only, which is the same for a given vehicle whether by itself or attached to a train. I am not totally sure that the Network Rail "price list" for Variable Track Access is applied to charter working, although it could be argued it is a breach of EU law not to apply it. I believe there is a planning fee, which may be higher for having an associated light engine movement.

 

You seem to answer you're own question Frank? The difference is paying for fuel or paying for fuel+access charges! I'd guess a 47 needs a lot more fuel to run LE from Tyseley to Glasgow and back than in notch 1 all the way.

 

Engine only will do the job, no need for power on or notch 1. Even to get a light loco upto 75mph you still need to use plenty of regulator.

 

This all seems a little argumental for what is a thread associated with an attempt to put a tour on which will no doubt be a great day out for all who choose to travel, and equally will be no great loss for those who have been very clear that they choose not to.

I don't understand why there is so much hostility towards VT, do they attach a 47 (which all accept will be dead or ticking over) for the sake of it, clearly not. They do for operational reasons and in order to keep the cost down for travellers - and as it has been suggested that the price was a little high anyway was this not to be applauded?

It doesn't bode well that so many seem to think that a dead diesel is a reason not to travel (no doubt you all refused to travel during the ETHEL period) as I fear that it will only get more requiring to use a diesel for operational purposes.

I wonder how many would have suggested in the late 60's/early 70's that a tour was not right if a diesel was attached at the rear - i fear that we won't know what we have got untill its gone!

 

Pedantic point but the ETHELS had their traction motors taken out/isolated and were quite incapable of providing power at the railhead.

VT are somewhat stuck between a rock and a hard place on this issue, however i will say the one issue that matters above all others in my mind is, if you antagonise Network Rail too much, they can make life difficult for you to the point where you cannot properly operate...

 

A few people refused to travel because of the ETHELS which was silly for even though they were right
behind the steam loco once you were on the move you wouldn't know they were there. Even when the
steam loco wasn't working that hard you couldn't hear the ETHELS ticking over.
As passengers in winter we were glad of them !

 

I'm the first poster on this topic and I feel really bad for the same reason. For people who love this locomotive don't hold back. Even though I live in the States, I jumped when I saw this trip advertised several months ago. Vintage Trains have worked hard with 6201 Princess Elizabeth Society to put this trip together.

Vintage Trains and Tyseley Locomotive Works trips run. That is the main reason I like them. One other thing, How often does a trip like this come about to celebrate special historical events?

Mike Schur

 

VT have confirmed the diesel is required for turning purposes, something that NR have instructed, and it will be more added expense to the paying passengers if it's sent light engine. That's the bottom line, VT cannot do anymore yet we still have 5 pages going over the same old jargon!!!

If people want to travel, they will. If they don't, they won't!

I'll still look forward to seeing the reports of the run and any video's or photo's that are taken and more importantly of all, it's a belting run and all goes smoothly!

 

The answer to your question, Mike is

6201 - The Mid-Day Scot - November 2006

This is the fourth steam into Glasgow Central this year, and the only one to be towing a diesel

GBIV in April - two black fives, West Highlander in September - 46115, Tornado also in September and this one.

Tornado and its entire train were turned, as a DBS working, by hooking a local 67 on the back and running the train to Shields Road. and then round the curve towards Motherwell hauled by 60163 which was now facing south. The 67 hauled the entire consist into Central and Tornado took the train back to Crewe all on its own - a cracking day out.

 

I don't understand the fuss, if the diesel is on the back quiet... And I'm on the train looking forwards.. I can't see it, hear it or feel it...so what ?

If my train is delayed or breaks down I'd much rather it got me home in time or at a reasonable hour than I would Sitting there looking at some field going dark in the middle of nowhere, for hours waiting for anything to happen.

From a passengers perspective, seeing VTs BR green 47 is actually refreshing its an extra photo opportunity.
I'd go even further... If the diesel on the back was a 40, 50, 52 or 55 I'd consider taking that trip as a bonus not a boondoggle. Having 47580 on the TOH trip to me was a bonus. (I've seen this 47 on a few trips and it brings a smile every time).
So for me.. Diesel yes.. And more heritage ones please.

 

A local air brake only DB Schenker operated class 67 would b of absolutely no use to a vacuum braked West Coast operation so I don't understand your point. Despite the obvious brake incompatibility the DBS charges for such a loco would b significant. Unfortunately West Coast and VT don't have the benefits of a fleet of diesels sitting around the country idle subsidised by the German government.

 

Sorry didn't put my point very well, I was referencing the ETHEL situation to highlight the fact that to some a modern feature (albeit non powering) within the consist is apparently a reason not to travel - I was not suggesting that the ETHEL was a power unit - more a large mobile genny!

 

Thank you Frank for picking up on the sly digs at linesiders that come so frequently here. Have those making those digs ever bothered to find out if the much derided linesider could in fact be life long contributors to various steam loco causes? And/or a regular customers on board their trains?

No. I doubt it.

The moment they step away from their cheque books, overalls or off from the trains to dare and stand by the track to take a photo they are derided and insulted by those who should know better.

And as for the box on the back of such an historic train, I think this post below explains a lot. And adding to it is the comment I would make, that the box being there can add enough weight on accasion for it to be needed to work on sections where the non box train could still be handled ok by the steam loco. At least in this case it is known in advance that it will be there, which I feel helps a lot. If such an addition to the train truly essential, and I acknowledge that sometimes it is, then at least advance warning has been given. And maybe on this trip it will do nothing except add to the weight of the train and the steam loco performance. For those on board I hope that is the case.

I'm one of those who is walking away. More and more from travelling on and linesiding main line steam. My grand plans of more than two years ago to start extensive timing on main line steam have collapsed in a heap for various reasons. Amongst which are the insideous, nasty, elitist comments made here by those involved with or close to the running of such trains. Seemingly directed at anyone who dares to become other than a submissive fare payer who will accept almost without question what what is thrown at them.

There are exceptions of course. And I will single out Graeme Bunker as being one. No. He's not perfect I'm sure. But the efforts he puts in to achieve something like the 9th July tirp to Weymouth this year with 34067 sometimes stand out like an oasis in a desert. And at present that looks like being my sole annual main line steam trip. Plus a few short drives locally with a camera when an ex SR loco heads down through Maidstone East on my local line.

 

Sorry to pick you up on a seemingly minor detail Frank but 44932 was on the West Highlander this year.