IOM Pender at MOSI

The IOM gov had a major contact for many a year at MOSI. The IOM RI was a member of the railway group. He never told anybody at MOSI that the IOM gov/transport wanted pender back, maybe cos they dont? So do IOM gov/transport want it back? i think not, have they got the money to do it up i think not? Have the IOM gov/transport ASKED for it back NO!

As i pointed out in another post many items were returned to the IOM when they were take off show at MOSI and then never used or put on show in the IOM.

Anyway i will be watching the news next week for the 1000s of manx men and women, protesting outside the house of keys for the return of pender !!!

 

I suspect we have been visited by take your pick of one of these creatures..

Maybe got lost and washed up in the Mersey

Chapter 4 - Folklore of the Isle of Man, A.W.Moore 1891

If we are all quiet... it may go back again.

 

Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

What i im struggling to understand is why out of all the knackered Manx Peacocks, why is it Pender that has to be the priority to be returned ?, I'f i had to choose a IOM engine to return to steam i'd go for 16 Mannin as something a little different to the rest, i know you say it's on the large side but that goes for as large number of Preserved engines, it makes her stand out in the same way 15 does as being the only 0-6-0.

 

Allan, I concur I cannot set conditions for a British Crown Dependency to request the return of a locomotive which it agreed to loan to a British museum - that would be up to the govenments and museums involved. Are you one of those bodies?

BUT i'm not sure how a sectioned locomotive can be claimed to be running just because it's innards are turned over on an electric motor, but it does give great hope for the remaining unrestored locomotives in the UK, maybe I'll pop down to Barry with an old starter motor and get 92245 "running".

Anyway, when I'm back in Manchester at Crimbo, fear not, for I shall sally forth to the MOSI and look at old Pender and I promise that just for you I'll keep pressing the button that makes her turn over and clocking up more interest than she ever would have done under a tarp in a siding on the IOM.

 

Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

Mr Thomson seems to be a very angry man, a man who cannot control himself.

Regards

 

Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

I'm surprised that 'Pender' is only on loan, bearing in mind that it has been sectioned. I've looked at the MOSI website and can find absolutely nothing on the engine - or any of the others it has in its care for that matter. Can anybody else confirm the ownership status of the engine?

Mr Thomson has said that he wants the engine returned; I have to ask for what purpose. The IoM is scarcely looking after the steam heritage it has, surely another would just be adding to the burden? For myself, I want this engine to stay where it is. It was acquired legally, it does show the engineering connections that Manchester has with the world at large and it is a very educational exhibit in that it shows the internals of a steam engine as they work and how the features interact with each other. Having said that, the railway exhibition at MOSI is very cramped for space and very badly lit; there is room for improvement there.

I don't know whether Mr Thomson's claim that railway enthusiasts on the island are greatly agitated by the current condition and location of 'Pender' are really true or not. What I do know is that the Isle of Man has a very affluent population, that there is a lot of money on the island. Perhaps Mr Thomson and his fellow enthusiasts would be better off if they sought donations from the islanders rather than seeking to annoy and irritate we on the mainland.

Regards

 

I think the troll has well and truly been fed on this thread.

 

As a lifelong Manx Railway enthusiast (trying to offer a counter-opinion to this thread!) I'm more than happy for Pender to be sat in MOSI and believe it is an excellent asset to the museum, and would not serve as such on the island.

Although I agree with points raised about Pender not fully advertising the islands railways, this is not it's main intention in the museum. I do not see adverts for the SAR and Pakistan Railway systems next to their respective locomotives, nor should they be required. In fact, I believe this is a common example found at Shildon/NRM etc.

Moving No.3 back to the island will have no benefits for the engine apart from those wanting to 'bring them all back together'. There are already several in store, with most of these outside the public domain. There is no space for another locomotive in the Port Erin museum, and further museums/locations would saturate visitors to these establishments on the island - something that the brigade who dream of reinstating the Peel and Ramsey lines as heritage railways do not understand.

Also, No.3 would be a costly renovation and would most likely be classed as a replica upon completion any overhaul undertaken. Is it better for the original locomotive to be providing a service to the millions who see it each year, and captivating the imaginations of children and 'grown ups' alike, or rotting at the back of Douglas Carriage shed alongside Mr Hendrys white elephants?

Bringing up an issue from one mans 'personal diary' after thirty odd years benefits no-one and only serves to create a thorny relationship between MOSI and IoMR enthusiasts, when surely Pender's existance in the museum should be doing the opposite. I just hope that the damage has not been done, and that most do not take Mr Thompsons opinions and attitude to heart and instead come and visit the island to witness and enjoy it's unique narrow gauge systems and meet the friendly enthusiasts for themselves - with or without Pender.

Tynwald.

 

Given the current level of debate regarding Pender both on this forum and the IOMSRSA forum ( Isle of Man Steam Railway Supporters Association ), I thought it might be interesting to investigate what factual information is available regarding number 3's move to Manchester in during September 1979.

The Steam Railway Supporter's own journal 'Manx Steam Railway News' Number 54 (October 1979) reports the events on page 6 as follows:

"It was also reported that locomotive No. 3 Pender had been sold by the MER Board to the North West Museum of Science and Industry for £1000. The loco departed on a Pickford's low-loader on Thursday 13th September via the Heysham ro-ro service. Pender is expected to take part in a procession in Manchester next year, to mark the 150th Anniversary of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway"

It would appear that from a contemporary (and, I would say, reliable) source of the time, the loco was thus SOLD and not loaned to the museum.

No conditions of sale are noted in the report in 'Steam Railway News' but I would have thought that if was sold to a museum in Manchester, it would have been ridiculous to imagine that it was not to be removed from the Island. Given Dr Hill's report, I would suggest that the MER Board (which was, at the time, an IOM govt. department) would have been fully aware that the loco would (a) move off island and (b) was to be sectioned.

Volume 2 of Boyd's history of the railway also recounts the exact same information as above (although I suspect he has taken the information from back issues of SRN as well). Robert Hendry's 'A Century of Manx Transport' also reports on page 109 (with a picture of number 3 on the low loader) that the engine was 'sold' to the museum.

It would seem that at least from this evidence, the locomotive was sold to the Manchester museum and (unless any clauses were written into the sale) that with ownership, the museum would be entitled to do what they wished with the engine unless anyone has any other written evidence to the contrary.

 

Game, set & match, it would appear. Thanks for posting that, GHWood

 

Mannin back in action, now that id love to see!

 

I've been asked to post the following message from Grant Taylor, editor of the IOMSRSA magazine and website, on behalf of the Isle of Man Steam Railway Supporters Association:


"Firstly, sorry to add another long post to your ever-growing thread, but we felt it necessary to offer an alternative viewpoint from the Supporters' Association, a view we believe is shared with most of the railway's devotees. Mr. Thomson is entitled to voice his opinion but comes across in an arrogant way which is not the attitude held by the remaining Manx preservationists.
Our attention has been drawn to this thread which is similar to one currently being discussed on our own forum at Isle of Man Steam Railway Supporters Association and as the leading preservation group on the island, we would like to give our opinion.
No. 3 has been off-island for 30+ years and provides an important part of the interpretive display; the railway's management, nor the vast majority of the railway's supporters (either on or off island) have a great desire for it to be
returned to the island.
The views of Mr. Thomson on your forum are, as far as our group is concerned, not shared by the many enthusiasts of the railway. The one disappointing aspect is that the information that accompanies No. 3 is scarce, with little mention of the Isle of Man Railway.
Our group have drawn up a modest information display with several photographs of the locomotive in operation and as far as we are aware these have not been displayed. As I have said, this is disappointing but we understand that there may be a policy in place that does not allow such displays to be exhibited.
We are aware that there is a small display, which in fact carries a photograph of a different locomotive (No. 13 Kissack) and have offered to provide a more accurate image but our offer has not been taken up. The MOSI has a vast
portfolio to maintain and a small matter like this is likely not a priority for them.
Back in 1978 there was a possibility of a further Beyer Peacock leaving the island: No. 6 Peveril. The intention was to loan the locomotive (no firm details were ever finalised) to the NRM but this failed to materialise. Today, No. 6 is in
the small museum at Port Erin adjacent to the station. However, had the proposal come to fruition, No. 6 could have provided even more awareness for the island and it's unique railway network. We were not opposed to this at the time it was mooted, though no doubt there are those that were.
Yes, there are several out of use locomotives in various ownership on the island, and had No. 3 remained it would no doubt be in a similar position. There can be no valid argument for having all remaining locomotives in traffic as
long as the railway is operated in the current manner. Mr. Thomson's notion that it "should be returned" for seemingly returning to traffic seem far-fetched to say the least.
The railway currently has five operational locomotives (including the Dubs-built Caledonia which will return in 2012) with proposals to return at least a further one to traffic in the mid-term. This is sufficient for our requirements and
whilst it can be considered a "shame" that No. 3 is no longer on the island, our group believe that she is in the best place she could be.
Any accusations that Mr. Thomson has made of the locomotive being "stolen" or the terms of the so-called "loan" having been breached, should be treated as suspect. In any case, we are not party to any formal agreement that was made at the time - the fact is that the locomotive has been sectionalised and is in the public arena. The only other thing we could ask for is some more information to accompany it about the Isle of Man Railway. We would be happy to provide this to anyone reading this who may be in a position to help.
The railway is in better shape than it has been for a great many years (certainly since the dark days of early nationalisation when No. 3 departed) and despite the change in world economics, it continues to develop and flourish. A
visit to our website shows the investment that has been made in recent years, long may it continue!"

 

Its pleasing to see a set of facts from a reputable source, if anything, the positive outcome of this thread Is raised awareness of the locomotive in the MOSI and the IOM railways.
Hopefully, more people may visit both as a result, even if the means of promotion of the topic were from a somewhat tarnished source.

 

No reflection on Matt or any of the railway team at MOSI, but the museum management's antipathy to matters transport, except for the Davies interregnum, is only too well known; and has returned since he departed.

Hopefully if there is a merger into the Science Museum fold the full role of this museum can be recognised once again.

 

Pender will also be 140 the same year the museum celebrates a significant number of big anniversaries that year...

In 2009 a stand was put on by Ffestiniog supporters when K1 visited, in 2011 a talk was put on, as discussed elsewhere on here, when 3157 the Pakistan locomotive was 100 and so the possibility of an IoM talk on Pender on her 140th in 2013 should not be ruled out!

 

Sleeping dogs ...

 

On a related topic, if the merger of MOSI with the Science Museum does go ahead, will its collection become part of the various National Collections, or will it retain a separate status of some kind?