15/12/2011 4492 The York Yuletide Express

The outward trip at Whittlesea. The diesel was working quite hard

60019 4492 on the York Yuletide Express 15/12/ 2011 - YouTube

John

 

I accept James's reasons for why DL assistance became necessary for this tour, but would be interested as to why there were Diesels top and tail, perhaps he could enlighten us?

I am normally quite pragmatic about Diesel assistance where there could be a performance or operating issue, but top & Tail Diesel with a 'token' steam loco on the front does not, to me constitute a steam hauled train.

 

As I understand it, if the diesel is to provide significant power, then it needs to go up front. Rear end assistance is essentially for emergency use only, although I'm not sure what constitutes an emergency, or what the official wording is. In this case, it was clear that significant diesel assistance would be required for a good proportion of the journey, so it needed to be up front. I don't know why the diesel on the rear was also needed, whether there was a shunting operation that required it, or if it was just easier / cheaper for it to tag along?

 

I more than understand all this, it is why a second Diesel was needed that interests me!

 

I would of thought that the second diesel was left on the train as the return was being diesel hauled and this would save a path/crew for the second 47. Generally WCR diesel tours seem to run in top and tail fashion.

 

I don't think the second loco is generally there to give assistance, as the rear loco is often shut down on diesel tours. It's usually there to avoid any run-rounds and allow for quick reversals. As our rails are pretty much a multiple unit network now, there's little room for trains that involve anything other than the driver walking from one end to the other to reverse.

 

Train would need to reverse at Ely in the evening, so "insurance" or otherwise its not the best of places to run a loco round in 2011! That answers your question I imagine?

On the subject of the why's and wherefores of all of us this...
Whatever anyone on here thinks of us (industry suppliers/operators) - when you are actually the one deciding to try and make these charters happen (either as promoter or TOC) you see it completely differently "sitting in the hot seat" than almost anybody else onloooking and traction-wise you really can't afford to 100% guarantee anything anymore (INCLUDING what methods of operation may be used which each locomotive, eg diesels in consists of steam charters) as the railway isn't so geared up for (or as friendly towards) these operations as 20-30 years ago.

Both promoter and now TOC are up against huge financial risks running the trains when compared to a typical charter train a few decades ago under BR, but whatever happens on the day (or in the lead up) contrary to what a minority may think of us we are also still guardian's of 100s of customers who have forked out good money to make a rail trip so nobody in their right mind would want to have a completely cavalier attitude to that I'd like to think as the "batterings" you can get on the day or afterwards if you have a run of misfortune/issues caused by "agenda over common sense" can be rather unpleasant and have lasting damage to the business (and industry as a whole).

Remember many customers travel with anyone regardless of operator and motive power so if somebody turns them off charters in general from not attempting to provide what the customer may see as a good service no other TOC or promoter will generally win out of it either! As many people do respect there are actually few people who actually care deepdown about whether a diesel is "involved" in the consist of a steam charter to do say a shunt release or help if Network Rail requested it etc, it is only enthusiasts normally and whilst nobody is trying to set out to upset anyone (I hope) the sometimes more vocal group are in the end normally not the core customer base of a train in 2011, even if they can gain pleasure from it running (I don't wish to criticise people's hobbies in saying this). Your average charter customer wants to be warm, comfortable, treated well on board, cover the routes that are of interest to them and enjoy the destination + if its a steam related charter enjoy the sight of it on the front of the train (and often get plenty of pictures), see a bit smoke fly past the window perhaps and have the unusual and memorable "vintage travel experience". Very few if any will wish to calculate the mileage or say "it doesn't count" if there's a diesel in the consist and that has spoilt their day! In my position I can gain unpopularity in some quarters just by speaking out on this subject, but these are the hard realities and I sometimes feel its forgotten that we cannot just operate how everything would "in an ideal world".

We are now one of the biggest promoters in the UK and now have a modestly small use of steam traction out of a large programme now so this subject is now something I am going to see come up more, hence why I've had a little to stick my neck out on it. Our policy will be that all of our booking forms + steam web pages (+ booking conditions) will in future have reference, even more specifically than in the past, about the "risk" side of travelling on a steam charter and the fact that on the day it is "possible" operating authorities may even have to add a diesel locomotive to the consist of the train. Add to this is it rare (almost unknown) that you will see a particular engine or "class" plugged on any of our booking literature as expected traction as I would rather not lead anyone down the garden path or make promises that really can't be guaranteed, especially when so few of our passengers care that much (the same can be said of both diesel and steam charters). This is a choice we have made because I see the volatile nature of not going down this road. Some people will no doubt never book any of our trains in advance (or ever) because they have their own wishes to be met (I respect that choice if so).

I fully respect people's interests in the hobby/past time (I have and have had one of my own over the years which is not necessarily to other people's tastes), but I really think there is some need for moving with the times a bit more or requirement to accept that we can't change the world we live in to suit our own minority preferences sensible as they are to our own wishes.

I certainly don't speak for other promoters in how they wish to tackle this subject (although I know I am not alone in opinion) but I feel that we can only carry on offering these trips by adapting to our environment.

 

Kevin writes, "Very few if any will wish to calculate the mileage or say "it doesn't count" if there's a diesel in the consist and that has spoilt their day!".

I wonder what "very few" means and whether this is true for all operators. I have never travelled with Compass Tours but on the many trips I have taken with Steam Dreams and RTC I notice familiar faces time after time. These are steam fans who, like me, to a greater or lesser extent abhor diesel assistance on a steam excursion. I suspect this is a core of repeat customers who provide a valuable foundation for the steam tour industry. I deeply resent the uncertainties that arise with some tours as I believe that tour operators could be much clearer about their plans than sometimes they are.

 

I do know of a number of people who are reluctant to book ECML steam tours at the moment due to the current uncertainty of exactly what they are going to get.