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L1 new build

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by stuartreeder, Feb 3, 2012.

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  1. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Spot on Tom!

    Only I also said that about the A1!
     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Yes, though as I understand it, almost the first document in day zero of the project to build Tornado was a sheet of A4 outlining that it would be possible to fund using large numbers of small regular donations - nothing to do with the engineering feasibility, everything to do with the financial feasibility.

    Whereas it seems with a few of the more recent projects announced on Facebook and elsewhere, the first document on day zero is to peruse the Hornby catalogue and say "that looks nice"...

    Tom
     
  3. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Firstly , all the froth so far is based on what at this point is a facebook group . there is one to build a caprotti Black 5 (don't ask me which type though)

    My perception is that most of these pie in the sky schemes can be discounted as never getting off the ground . Why do they say that ? Those behind the A1 & 82045 and Patriot have the gravitas and skill to persuade the public that not only is the project feasible but that it will happen . That Gravitas , may be a genius marketing plan or demonstratable engineering prowess that draws people in and makes them keep putting their hands in their pockets . It almost becomes a unique selling point . Plant the idea and plant it well and suddenly you are on the journey to success

    When your project is already in tatters on a national forum , who show some real astuteness in judging schemes then it's time to hope for plan B and that is a Euro Millions jackpot win
     
  4. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

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    Project in tatters?

    I haven't said a word!

    Will the Engineering team from the J39 be heading this one up in their spare time or are they going to build the Claud Hamilton first?
     
  5. knotty

    knotty Member

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    Agreed. And for new builds, I think it would be eminently more interesting and suitable to consider pre-grouping engines generally given their charm, relative mechanical simplicity, visual diversity and appropriateness for the purposes of preservation rail generally. More 2-4-0's, 4-4-0's and small tanks for instance. The H5 and G5 projects are good examples of engines fit for purpose as well as being examples of tragic losses from the ledger. I'd personally like to see a MR Johnson small-boilered 4-4-0 in it's original guise as well as a Johnson 0-4-4t which were ubiquitous on the Midland. For larger engines how about A NBR Reid or GCR Robinson Atlantic, both impressive engines with presence. The Claud Hamilton is one I'd really like to see get off the ground. I'm in close contact with the chaps behind a pitch to build a LNWR George the Fifth too, which is beginning to move (I can't say too much at this stage).

    A Caley Dunalistair would for instance make a perfect addition to the scene as well as being more cost effective to build than rather a mediocre Thompson tank CALEDONIAN RAILWAY - 774 - McIntosh Class 2P 'Dunalastair II' 4-4-0 - built 03/1898 by St Rollox Works - 1923 to LMS No.14330 - withdrawn 01/40 - seen here at Carlisle Kingmoor.
     
  6. Chris A

    Chris A New Member

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    I would like to set the record straight here. The Claud Hamilton contains ONE member of the J39 (Tim Clarke) and he IS NOT an engineering manger, project manager or anything else like that. The out come of the J39 or indeed the L1 is totally separate from us. We have our own dedicated team who while young, ALL have some engineering background and volunteering behind them and several of our board members have business backgrounds too.

    Back onto the main topic, I would like to see an Thompson L1, but don't see it getting far as they've got reputation for being a "miners friend" and by all accounts so powerful, they pulled and shook themselves to bits.
     
  7. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Half the problem with the preservation movement as a whole is that there's very little outlets for younger, enthusiastic members to understand exactly what goes into either running a railway from the top down in terms of management, building/maintaining/restoring steam locomotives, and to cap it all off, they go as children brought up with Thomas the Tank Engine to being thrown in at the deep end amongst the big engines like Mallard with unrealistic expectations of timescales.

    There are some terrific projects on select railways working with youngsters that see them eventually rise through the ranks and learn the trade, and of course there are lots of the locomotive clubs around the country which are commendable, but the information which is necessary for them to understand the ins and outs of railway preservation in its entirety is very rarely on show.

    I say this knowing there is a perfectly good website, complete with costings and timescales, pretty much showing "how to build a Peppercorn A1" and some other notable websites of other new builds...but they are almost unique in that all the information on the build is available in one place.

    The beauty of Tornado, Beachy Head, 82045, Hengist, all of the GWR new builds and so on and so forth, which already have major components cut and are progressing, year on year, is that they create further interest. The enthusiasm to want to go out and do it for oneselves is not to be derided but it has to be handled firmly. The best way to do this would be to contact the groups, invite them to see for themselves what it takes to actually build a locomotive, give them full costings, time and explanations of the skills involved, and then to translate that into articles in the railway press to push the point further.

    Then, if all the facts and figures are known, and they still go ahead with their plans, but in a more reasonable, thoughtful, and better planned manner, who knows - in twenty years time we might have a J39, D16 and an L1 and that won't be a bad thing necessarily for railway preservation in this country, will it?
     
  8. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    firstly it seems mad having two schemes effectively based from the same pool of youngsters , chasing after the same money and skills base . It seems almost like a life of brian moment "follow the claud hamilton , no follow the j39 !!! etc "

    It was quite interesting reader your chairman's report . 1200 hits, well done guys , My flickr gallery hit 64000 , My Blurb bookstore well over 2500 . The big problem is you are trying to persuade people to buy into something . Of those 1200 hits probably 1 in 100 will contribute . You need 1000's of contributors to make this engine steam

    You've done the easy big , giving yourselves fancy titles and designing a website and being all self congratulatory but not one piece of Claud Hamilton . Of all the railwayana that exists or potential loco parts for the claud , no one has donated a part yet . Something tangible to show . and here I come back to credibility
     
  9. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    My only question on seeing this one is why? what is so remarkable about this particular class that even warrants thinking about attempting a new build????
     
  10. knotty

    knotty Member

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    Nothing at all. I think the Claud Hamilton proposal has a lot of merit personally and all these wishlist proposals emanating from broadly the same group of youngsters only detracts from the legitimacy and seriousness of the initial CH proposal. I strongly recommend that everyone involved in this nascent L1 proposal should join the Claud Hamilton group or one of the other well-established new-builds.
     
  11. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

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    "People's front of Judea? SPLITTER - this is the Judean people's front!"

    Classic!
     
  12. knotty

    knotty Member

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    If you are insistent in putting your energies into a new build tank of LNER origins (I'd recommend not to incidentally), why not at least consider a Gresely V1 or V3 over the forgettable Thompson L1? Far superior engines, more manageable and suitable for preservation line operation.

    The Gresley V1 and V3 2-6-2T Prairie Tank Locomotives

    Really though, pool your resources into the Claud.
     
  13. damianrhysmoore

    damianrhysmoore Well-Known Member

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    There is a spectacular lack of steam locos which can accurately represent Eastern Region railways, so it shouldn't really come as a surprise that that young railway enthusiasts from the area want to correct that. The vitriol directed at some of the schemes on this forum puts the authors to shame and to a lesser extent the forum itself. If you spot a typo on the website send them a private message, don't take every opportunity to humiliate them just to score pathetic points, you risk turning these people away from the very hobby you profess to love. There are some very valid and constructive suggestions about the groups joining established projects, another suggestion would be that the groups seek out engineering and project management mentors for the projects. I do think there are too many projects being proposed at the moment but would love to see this energy channelled into one B17 project (because they have tenders and drawings and experienced members already) plus perhaps one other (I personally would love to see a Claude Hamilton, but would be delighted to see anything prototypical or East Anglia). I think that two projects could be supported and would make a valuable contribution to the steam scene.
     
  14. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    The first thing any new build proposer has to do is put forward a credible plan of how it is to be funded. The costs nowadays are so great that it will be necessary to convince a wide audience of people to put forward regualr contributions, and people are naturally cautious with their hard-earned so a convincing financial plan is essential to help win them over. And prefereably, convince a few people to put up some substantial amounts to get the project off to a flying start.
     
  15. steamdream

    steamdream Member

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    very nice very elegant engines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    what was their speed limit?
    regards
    noel
     
  16. knotty

    knotty Member

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    I don't think anyone here wants to dent their enthusiasm but far more than enthusiasm is needed to tackle such proposals and expect others to be sufficiently convinced that your enthusiasm is matched seriousness of intent and consideration. It's insufficient to browse a catalogue of lost locomotives, select one for whatever personal preference (the L1 in contrast to the J39 and Claud appears to be a particularly poor choice suggesting little real exploratory groundwork behind the proposal), then go about broadcasting your plan complete with a nice website, expecting support financial and otherwise; more so when those who've made the announcement have demonstrated little seriousness of intent through credible details, and not least because some of those behind the proposal are affiliated with similar proposals which have to date little to show for them. It's only reasonable that such an approach would strain credulity and credibility. Proposals to focus on one project at a time or become involved in a pre-existing new-build or restoration project will only build credibility and connections for any prospective future projects.

    @steamdream. I agree, they're a very handsome engine and more fit for purpose than an L1 however I'm afraid I don't know their top speed - perhaps someone else can answer this?
     
  17. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't see Vitriol , but I do see a lot of reason being raised on all these new build threads . If the scheme's are not prepared to listen to that reason then equally they should be prepared to fail
     
  18. TonyMay

    TonyMay Member

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    actually the L1 has the advantage over a V3 because it has 2 cylinders, not three, as Thompson realised when he designed them. So the motion is less complex and you don't have a middle engine to maintain. A L1 would in many ways be suited as a new build project. It's a tank engine that runs well in both directions. Class 4 engine but with small 4' 8½" driving wheels suited to 25mph max operation. Straightforward parallel boiler which is easier to build than a tapered boiler. Many of the parts are interchangeable with a V3 so maybe that could be a secondary project. The point about LNER heritage when relatively few LNER engines survive is a good one. What the group is lacking atm is (1) a core leadership team and (2) a home. It needs a home somewhere in LNER territory, and the long-term backing of a preserved railway there. They need somewhere to build it, somewhere to run it once its finished, and somewhere to appeal to the backers of. That is why the 3MT 2-6-2T is getting built - it is being supported by the SVR and its members. That is why the GCR class 2 is going to get build - it is being supported by the GCR (it probably needs a little more momentum but it's building slowly). That is why the Holden F5 is getting built because it's supported by the EOR (and presumably has some cash from that railway's major backer). The LB&SCR Atlantic is getting built because it's supported by the Bluebell and its members. It's also why the Clan is going nowhere because it won't be very useful and nobody wants it. If the core leadership team realise this and are committed, they'll have somewhere to go. The question is where? The GCR is unlikely to want another new build at this stage; so the NYMR perhaps? where else is there?
     
  19. knotty

    knotty Member

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    @TonyMay
    Fair comment about the relative complexity of the V1/3's versus the L1. My comment pertained to the superiority of the engine but the L1 is a simpler machine, that is true. Personally, simple 2 cylinder, pre-grouping engines (numerous 4-4-0's and small tank engines which became extinct before the preservation movement had really gotten going, have a lot of merit as projects - scale, complexity, novelty and suitability (and besides, who doesn't like seeing a quintessentially British late Victorian/Edwardian engine resplendent in it's ornate period livery?)) A GNR Ivatt 'D' class 4-4-0 for instance would be an eminently suitable addition along with the Claud GER Hamilton and Pollitt GCR class 2 in addressing the omissions to the LNER ledger. The LMS is another with more than a few gaping holes, especially with regards to pre-grouping representation.
     
  20. Chris A

    Chris A New Member

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    While I understand where you are coming from, we are fully aware that we will need 1000s of people to contribute, the point of stating the number of website views in the report is that it means the project is becoming known to people, and raising awareness of the Claud project is one of the first steps to seeing the loco built.

    We are aware of at least two parts from the Clauds which survive. One we know of its location and owner, the other we don't. We have heard that more components survive, however we don't as yet know what they are and where they are. If anyone knows anything then do please email us and we can look into it.

    What many people may not be aware of is that we are actively working behind the scenes on the Claud so that soon we will indeed have something tangible to show.

    As Knotty and I think someone else said earlier in the thread the Claud Hamilton is a big missing link in Eastern Region preservation, its a classic East Anglian loco and the most legendary of the GER, with one being saved for preservation but of course then scrapped.

    We would like to thank everyone who supports our project and we all listen to the comments and suggestions make. If anyone can help us or point us in the right direction with certain aspects of the project then please do contact us we appreciate all help given and offered to us.
     
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