Flying Scotsman

The discussion on the Civil Service/Public Sector has been moved to here:
http://railways.national-preservation.com/new-general-chat/35043-civil-service.html

Richard

 

Thanks std tank.

 

I do not expect that the frames had any real attension since they were last overhauled in BR days, dispite what may have been said about the very expensive in those days overhaul carried out on 4472 at Southall mostly because very few outfits had then done such extensive work on frame sets, at the most it would have been replacing loose rivits and setting up axle centres By the time it would have needed major mechanical work the owning group had it would seem run out of money , so in reality it ran with limited repairs for most of its 10 year ticket , hence the problems that have been found
At least now she has been properly repaired and everything has been double checked ,Actualy, this is in its own way a good thing , having another engineer examine the work done, it means that she will be correct, I have always thought that every engine that is going to be on the mainline should be examined during its overhaul by an suitably qualified person

 

Could I just point out that the overhaul was carried out in 1999 and Flying Scotsman PLC went bust in early 2004. So 4472 saw about 4 years service. Not a lot is it.

 

I didnt think it was that short, doesnt say much about the overhaul then does it? when did the NRM withdraw it 2 years later, because it was to far gone to keep patching it up , so i would assume that even after its "overhaul" it must have still had a lot of things that were not right , compare this with other engines such as Clan Line , she works the VSOE, and manages to be kept in good mechanical condition, but then, she has a good team behind her, where as 4472, seems to soak up money but not seem to benifit from it , when you think what the 4472 brand is worth, i can only assume that little ended up being spent on her upkeep

 

Just to put the issue of new parts being made and fitted to Flying Scotsman into some sort of context, I recently came across a book called "Steam Was My Calling" by E S Beavor, who started his railway career as a "premium apprentice" at Doncaster in the 1930's, and worked under the regime of Sir Nigel Gresley.

He first quotes the case of A3 2744 "Grand Parade", badly damaged in a collision in Scotland, and should have been written off as beyond economic repair. However that would have required authorisation from the Directors of the LNER, so the loco was dragged to Doncaster and dismantled. Eventually a locomotive emerged with the same number, name, and makers plate, but in fact incorporated a new frame, new cylinders, a spare boiler from the boiler park, wheels from another engine, etc etc. Very little of the original engine was reused. So as the author comments, the brass makers plate was now pure fiction!

Turning to Flying Scotsman, writing in circa 1974 the author mentions that a loco-spotter seeing 4472 in the late 1930's would have seen a locomotive whose constituent parts were mainly "not" those of the gleaming exhibit seen at the Wembley Exhibition of 1924-25. He goes on to ask what components Mr Peglar could prove --apart from the makers plates and nameplates--are really part of the original. ( the author acknowledges that this is particularly true of engines subject to rebuilding during their working life).

I dont want to trigger a forensic debate about what is and is not "original" on 4472, but what the above does suggest for us in the present day is that organisations such as the NRM have a choice, do you preserve and display a locomotive "frozen" at a point in time, like the LMS Pacific "City of Birmingham" in Birmingham, or do they in appropriate circumstances decide that for working steam, this long-term process of repair and renew with new parts as necessary, continues?

 

We do both...

And as for what is original from 1923, it seems that the splashers are.

 

I think you will find the wheel centres are original, they have the larger balance weights from the first few 'production' locomotives, before Professor Dalby at the London City & Guilds college confirmed Doncaster's calculations re balancing and the balance weights were reduced in size accordingly.

 

Many years ago I, and some friends, inspected every locomotive in the scrapyard at Barry. The nearest to an 'original' locomotive was Duke of Gloucester, notwithstanding its missing valve gear and cylinders. The two Kings had a multiplicity of odds and ends from other locos and, course, had received new frames in the fifties. I wonder, therefore, how much of City of Birmingham and Lode Star can be said to be 'original'? All working locomotives went through these changes as a matter of course except, perhaps, on some minor private lines.

Meic

 

Nothing that has happened in the past can be changed. Whilst I accept there are some unanswered questions and individual agendas running through this thread ... surely its time to look forward?

 

Yes - like her running in turns in May

I wonder what the BW&WL federation will find to write about then.

 

The value of an artefact being 'original' does not hinge on it being 'original' to the day it was made. 4003 Lode Star, 46235 CofB and others are of value in their current state because they have not been touched since being taken out of, for want of a better word, 'genuine' service, and where they have it was by BR and BR fitters.

That is to say, everything you see in front of you is genuine steam age and genuine steam age workmanship - not replica pieces and restoration period workmanship emulating the real deal. That is not to say that such items and workmanship are inferior - often you can't tell the difference - but there is a difference, nonetheless.

 

Yes, I appreciate that but it seems that a lot of people do not. On the other hand, a locomotive that is working will by its very nature be subject to change and interchange of parts. So what exactly will 'Flying Scotsman' be? The answer is; a working locomotive. Just look at the historic fleet of the Ffestiniog Railway for example. Very little can now remain of the original locomotives but 'the good will of the business' goes back a long way. Then look at 'Princess' marooned in Spooners Bar. I would guess that very few, in their heart of hearts, would not prefer to see it working.

A lot of people seem to be annoyed that Scotsman has cost so much but then, doesn't every overhaul throw up unexpected problems?

Meic

 

Still would prefer to see Taff Vale Railway 28 steaming on the Gwili... with their TVR and GWR four wheel coaches true preservation. surely this loco preservation milarcky by the NRM should be for everyone including South Wales where there is not a single mainline engine! yet the first steam engine ran there!

 

It is for everyone, walk down any shopping precinct and ask how many recognise the name Flying Scotsman and how many an obscure little tank engine - 4472 is a national icon, whether you like it or not. And please forgive me, but what are you crying about? Its not where locos are based, but where they run, and South Wales has not been off the steam map at all has it?

If you want to make a proposal, resource, and fund it - be my guest.

 

I am not crying! Please don't ever say that I am to me again! I was stating my opinion... Oh yeah so if some one in South Wales wanted to go see A mainline engine where would they go? and yes I am contributing so is every citizen in the country! I dont know who you think you are or what you think your about but taking that tone with me does not seem a civilised reply!

 

From todays Yorkshire Post

Flying Scotsman: Another train delay, but museum boss stays put - Main Section - Yorkshire Post

 

Re. TVR 28 - please do not take silence for lack of action...not everything that we do can be shared on a public forum, and neither are our activities solely concerned with 4472. I have nearly 300 vehicles in my care, and 4472 is but one of them - albeit a high profile one.

 

I'd quite like Steam Railway Magazine to stop pressing the issue of "falling on his sword". Steve Davies is a clever, enthusiastic head of the National Railway Museum and a gentleman through and through. Give him, and the museum, a break on Flying Scotsman, for gawd's sake. They're so close to finishing, and I wonder how many magazines that will sell when Steam Railway can report on that with photographs...!

The tabloidness becoming rife in our railway press is increasingly depressing. I recently bought a set of bound copies of The Railway Magazine, 1940-49, and the contrast in the reporting with that of today (across the board mind you) is amazing.