Castle/Star conversions

Indeed I did not. But in the lap of all the pristine and specifically restored exhibits, she does look a bit left out. A sorry sight? Subjective. But definitely makes for an interesting read.

And the hypothetical point I was making is that would the originality argument of 4003 still hold if, in X number of years/decades/centuries, she ended up looking in a similar way?

 

good post Guard jamie eace:

 

IIRC, Lode Star has been hacked about quite severely at the front end, to represent the loco in its earlier working condition. It should have outside steam pipes, and the last time I saw the locomotive, there were patches where they should enter the smokebox. I wouldn't mind betting that inside the smokebox is the real reason that NRM won't let the loco go.

Lode Star is best left where it is, as an example of top-rank edwardian locomotive practice. Do you really want to put a class 5/6 out in todays railway? I'd much rather see a Jubilee doing the 'business'.

As said before, The NRM needs Flying Scotsman. It needs a 'toy' to play with, and fly the NRM flag. The sheer expense of getting 4003 into running condition is awesome. Do you want outside steam pipes ala castle? Believe me, thats what you will get, unless someone coughs up for a new set of inside admission cylinders, and I can't see that happening real soon.

The argument for resurrection boils down to this; A lot of people would love to SEE it happen (including me). However, reality can really bite your ar*e, especially when there is serious money involved.

BTW, I'm a 100% in favour of seeing a star in action, but not 4003, or a cobbled together facsimilie.

Kind regards,
Ian

 

I am sure Anthony could will give an insight to their policy if requested, my guess it it's not a black and white decision and takes the history and merits of each loconotive into consideration.

You've said it in one line...thanks!
Reminds me I must really get that article finished...

by the way, I'd do 2516 over 4003 any time. And I love them both. Remember - antiques on wheels, not Enterprise car rental...

 

All Star lass Locomotives were initially built with inside steam pipes. There are pictures that exist of 2 of the last batch of Stars built the Abbey Series with inside steam pipes. The Abbey series were built between 1922 & 1923. Lode Star apparently had her elbow steam pipes added in 1949

 

But it was done 'carefully'

I thank you....

 

hear hear. We have two GWR 4 wheelers at the Gwili which would be a perfect match for 2516, I'm sure Didcot would also provide a similar combination

 

Anthony - I'd get my cheque book out for the Dean Goods!

 

If you look at the old photo that was posted earlier in the thread she went into preservation with elbow steam pipes. AIUI they connect a boiler/smokebox set up for outside steampipes to cylinders set for inside steam pipes. So by the looks these have simply been removed: anyone handy for Swindon to see if she has any steam pipes at all? At a very uninformed guess I think this means that the cylinders are probably reasonably elderly, since the GWR seem to have been fitting outside steampipe cylinders from 1929.

 

I agree, not only do the cylinders date from before 1929 if not the original ones but it should be borne in mind that had the war not intervened she would almost certainly have been withdrawn a decade earlier. She may well have become rough riding with worn or weakened frames, while as the no 1 boiler was still in demand in 1951 can it be assumed she was laid up with a well worn one?

If she was to be returned to steam it could probably only be for gentle use on a preserved line unless she was almost completely rebuilt.

Conversely 4073 is likely to be on far better condition but there is no reason to tamper with her as we fortunately have a number of working Castles.

 

Yes, I think it would. 4003, Bauxite No.2, and others appear to have been selected as the 'conservation' artefacts. I hope that that would be upheld in the future - arrest decay but don't restore. Obviously if there were some disaster such as a fire or flood damage, that could legitimately change.

 

Well aware of that, but AIUI all that means is that with a boiler change she got a boiler set up for outside steam pipes, so had to have the elbow pipes to match that up with the existing cylinders, which remained the type designed for inside pipes. Worth reading Cook's "Swindon Steam", which gives you an insight into the sorts of things they did to keep overhaul costs down in the works.
I don't know the details, but I assume that the elbow pipes were a cost saving compromise enabling them to use the new smoke box and boiler arrangements without scrapping old style cylinder castings which still had plenty of life left - I understand that Star cylinders were at least sometimes given liners when they had reached the rebore limit. There's some content, but frustratingly not as much as one would like, about this in Nock's "Stars, Castles and Kings".
Incidentally an undated photo in "Stars, Castles and Kings" shows Lode Star en route for Swindon Municipal Museum without the elbow pipes. If one is naive enough to believe Wikipedia presumably that would be around 1962.

 

Re: Scotsman Overhaul updates

All joking aside taking note of the 47xx project, there will be a spare No.1 boiler available (incidentally don't Tyseley have a spare one as well that they were seeking to sell - not sure where that came from) equally the GWS already have a pattern for 6'8 (and a half) wheels from the saint project. Its the starting point - they also have the reference point of a 1:1 scale model availale for comparison.

But please at least finish the saint first!

 

Re: Scotsman Overhaul updates

Martin

I think you are exactly right and I am surprised that GWS hasn't thought of this if most if not all parts are avaiilable.
Higher degree of superheat and a Collett cab you would have an extremely usefull loco for both mainline and heritage lines.
Would be usefull for doubleheading where a Hall would be used but can't because of width over cylinders.
I know the purists would hate it but a Collett cab would give a lot more protection if used on the mainline.
I think this would make more sense than a damn great 47xx and be a darn sight more usefull.

Cheers Dave

 

Isn't it the other way around ?. The elbow steam pipes were used on those engines fitted with new Castle-style outside cylinders but retained the old style smokebox arrangements where steam emerges from the back of the smokebox saddle between the frames. But this makes Lode Star a real enigma if the smokebox shows evidence of once having steam pipes on the outside.

David

 

Re: Scotsman Overhaul updates

Not really disagreeing fundamentally, but why would a Star be more useful than a Castle - on the mainline at any rate? The GWR considered the Castle to be slightly cheaper to maintain: that was how they justified the Abbey conversions on the renewal fund. Surely the only thing that a Star would bring to the game would be her (admittedly lovely) looks, and if you change the locomotive by adding say 6 inches and a Collett cab then haven't you lost the looks? Especially if she also need to be cut down for loading gauge anyway. I think I would applaud if Mr Waterman decided to convert Thornbury Castle into Thornbury Abbey, but I'm not sure it could be justified on practical grounds.


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David: check the photo of Lode Star in store earlier in the thread showing the elbow pipes. I'm reasonably confident I'm correct.

 

Re: Scotsman Overhaul updates

Didn't mean to imply it would be more use than a Castle at least on the mainline but would be more popular with the pway guys on heritage lines.
As to looks I'm not sure, personally I think Churchward cabs are dreadfull no cover for the crew.
Might not the maintenance thing be a red herring to justify rebuilds, smaller cylinders on the same running gear would suggest they would be kinder on the running gear, maybe they were being thrashed as the loads increased, I seem to recall reports of them leaving Paddington with 15 on.
One thing that cannot be argued with is their lineage Star-> Castle-> King -> Princess Royal -> Princess Coronation I think this is fair, so the Star is much more important than other more obscure GWR designs I have read mentioned on here.
Thats my view anyway by the same arguments I have always disliked the early Saints they look too much like prototypes, in their later form ouside steam pipes later cabs etc. now that's a different matter, they are handsome engines.
Now I've probably stirred up a hornets nest.

Cheers Dave