A good 'un from a bad 'un

I recall reading that too, but it was many years ago in one of the monthly mags, I think.

 

34105 was regarded as the dog of the fleet at Bournemouth and spent most of its time at the back of the shed when the S&D weren't desperate.....

45379 had a reputation eh? Well its OK now, but I think 45231 is better.

 

Yes, 45379 did bow out on a sour note & was withdrawn. Also had to be rescued by a box, an unusual occurrence back then. Usually the other way round.

http://semaphore.avonvalleyrailway.org/html/45379finalrun.html

http://semaphore.avonvalleyrailway.org/html/45379workings.html Last paragraph, seems it was in a bit of a state.

 

Can't vouch for what 45379 was like in BR days, but in its restored condition the boiler is unbelievably free-steaming.
A fireman's dream.

 

Having read the account of 45379 failing, & what was subsequently found, to me it looks as though the lubricator had been injecting too much oil, which ended up choking up the blastpipe - no wonder the poor old girl couldn't steam . I've not seen her 'in the metal' as yet, but she looks superb in the photos/vids I've seen, & it's good to hear that she steams well too. All concerned should be very proud of themselves

I was also interested to hear the story of one Castle in particular, earlier in the thread, which was a poor performer compared to others. This locomotive was on one particular duty very regularly. I suppose that she could have had something similar going on? That, coupled with the particular turn she was on, could well have combined to make her performance suffer.

 

Didn't 35007 see use on a couple of specials on the GCR to Nottingham Victoria?

 

The best of the fives is 45305, and it was the same at the end of steam. Lostock Hall got several engines from places like Edge Hill when they closed, and they couldn't believe how good they were compared to the ones they been struggling with for ages. 45305 was the best of them, and it was to have been used on the last special though the brick arch had collapsed the previous weekend. It had been through the works and then stored at Sutton Oak for about 18 months. 44781 was supposedly the best at Carnforth, though 45342 was also very good albeit very off-beat. 44871 was used on the last special only because it was the best one available that had decent paintwork and lining.

 

Reading back through some of these postings reminded me of a story I heard back in the sixties about how it came to be that some of the Duchesses were painted red. This originated from one of the railway managers in the Camden area - not from the actual loco depot - but he knew some of the characters involved. It's impossible to verify excatly the details now because all the people involved are long passed on. Anyway it doesn't get aired very often so here goes.

Being the pet engine at Camden and a big favourite with certain people, someone senior managed to pull some strings to get that particular engine painted in the same colour as the Midland Compound 1000, which was being restored or to be restored at about the same time. 46245 was lined out in the LMS style and looked a real picture. So much so that someone at Crewe then decided it would be rather nice to paint some more like that. Unfortunately on quite a few of them they used the BR style lining as on the green engines, and which didn't look quite so good. It was some years before that was corrected, and eventually they were all done like 46245.

 

Bearing this in mind, we're privileged that 45305 is still with us, as it was saved by Mr Draper the scrapman purely on account of it being the cleanest black five sent to his yard. Whatever 44871 may have been like in BR days, I'm sure that under Ian Riley's care it will be an excellent machine in preservation. Also good that 45379 is winning plaudits from Mid Hants crews after being somewhat less than a star in BR days. I visited Barry in 1974 and 45379 was nicely positioned for photography. I've always had a bit of a soft spot for her since then, and appreciate the fact that she's not too far away to enjoy. From my observations, 45379 seems to perfom well, although I'm no expert.

 

Had some cracking runs with 45342 on the 'Belfast Boat Express' in 1968. Speed was usually in the mid 80s on the
Preston - Lancaster section, thundering through the night with glowing red hot cinders streaking past the carriage
windows.....sheer magic!

 

Some "fives" in good nick went to scrap in 1968 - presumably 45342 being one of a number of good'uns. However, what of the survivors of '68? In view of how many locos were still on BR's books right up to August, were those that were saved all engines with good repuatations? Logic would suggest that this was the ccase.

45305 by common consent was one of the best, although 45110 and 44871 probably owe their survival to their 1T57 fame. What of the others?

44806 I believe, like 45305 came to Lostock hall from another shed (Speke Junction??) and I read somewhere that it too was regarded as a good engine.
45407 has been a popular engine in preservation, but what of its LMS/BR career?
Then there is 44932. Again, a personal favourite after a superb run from Swanage to Waterloo and back in Novermber 2010; I shan't forget its running on the fast line between Basingstoke and Woking! However, what of its pre-preservation careeer? I believe I read somewhere that although it was down on Rose Grove's books until August '68, it hardly turned a wheel in service for much of that year.

The other preserved Black fives which lasted until August 68 are 45025, 45212 and 45231. Apart from knowing that 45212 working the last scheduled steam-hauled passenger train, I have read or heard nothing about the reputations of these particular engines, and would be interested to know more.

 

Reports from Carnforth in the mid 70's indicate that 45407 was definitely considered the best of those there at the time. That's not necessarily a reflection of how they were in service. Just a general assessment of overall condition and how much work was required to put them back into service. The only thing that counted against 45407 was that it didn't have the modified suspension (which makes them more resistant to frame fractures). 44871 also came out well, but there was a question mark over the boiler, which was a special and the BR boiler inspector didn't want them to use it. Seems okay now though!

When the engines were acquired from BR the best ones were chosen as far as they could tell with limited resources. I remember a story that a group from Keighley went to Lostock Hall, but weren't allowed to spend a lot of time looking. In fact I think I'm correct in saying they had to do it at night when no-one was around. They looked at 45305, but the arch was down and they couldn't be sure what the firebox was like so they took 45212 instead. 45444 was also considered by potential purchasers, but again they couldn't examine it properly.

45025 didn't have a great reputation when it was at Willesden. It had been in an accident at Bletchley and thereafter was considered a poor engine for the rest of the time it was there. However it had a good reputation for running in it's latter days. Some of the fives changed over the years because on the early ones they changed the framesets around to deal with the awful frame fractures some of them suffered. Someone has documented all this. I think it's in the loco profiles book as well as the RCTS data. For example the frames of 45305 actually originate from one of the early Crewe built engines. One of the ways you can tell it's not the original is that the damper controls are different from the AW engines.

 

45110 must have been a good engine as it was a Holyhead loco for most of its life bad engines got passed on.
This is also one of the black 5's altered in the frames, although having an original 3 row superheater domeless boiler its frames are Ivatt frames with manganese steel liners to the axleboxes.
The frame alteration made a big difference when 5000 was on the SVR it was noted that 5000 was a rough runner although strong but that 45110 ran like a coach.
Cant have been a bad engine a Karl Jauncey video shows it starting a 13 coach train from Holyhead with no fuss.
44932 always seems a strong engine 45305 runs well and fast Ian Riley's engines have nothing to prove, I will always remember 44871 and 70013 taking 13 up theLickey unaided tat would never have happened in BR days.
Something that I was told by an BR man who had just driven 43106 fom Dorridge to Didcot needs repeating here " the difference is that the preserved engines are looked after and are properly maintained under BR they were not"

Cheers Dave

 

I doubt the frames on 45110 are Ivatt frames. Most, if not all, were a longer wheelbase in any case. Many of the early Five frames were modified with the same type of horn blocks that the later engines had. This was a much more substantial arrangement which had spring hanger brackets reaching right down to the springs and one piece horn block which includes manganese steel liners, as well as what is known as the Horwich horn clip. The early engines originally had separate horn cheeks and studs in compression mounted separately on the frame, which acted as the spring hangers and gave a fine adjustment, whereas the later ones were adjusted with a range of plates. Very quick to do, but not as precise. The early suspension resulted in examples of horrendous frame fractures. Sometimes the frame would even collapse in pieces when the boiler was lifted in the erecting shop. As far as I know the only survivors of the original frame arrangement are on 45293, 45379 and 45407. 45293 has strengthening plates retro fitted around the centre driving horns, as many of them did, and is undergoing substantial frame repairs during restoration.

The boiler on 45110 is one of the first series of AW boilers, originally fitted to 5183 when new. It is domeless with 21 elements and straight throatplate, never modified like the original 14 element boilers were. 45110, 5000 and 5025 have 21 element domeless boilers. The only survivor of the modified original 14 element boilers, is the one now on 45212 which was fitted to 5065 when new, and later converted from 14 elements to 24, and fitted with a dome. All other class five boilers are sloping throatplate, with either 24 or 28 elements. Only two have the Ivatt injector feed arrangement on the front ring.

 

I always understood from from my time as SVR footplate crew that 45110 had been at some time fitted with the later Ivatt frames. As Big Dave coments 45110 certainley did run like a coach! never seemed quite as strong as 45000 which was quite a rough ride.

 

In that case measure the frame thickness. If it's one inch you know it's an original. If it's more then it could be a later frame. Some were 1 1/16", a few 1 1/8" and and a very few even thicker than that. My guess is that it was at some stage updated with the latest frame fittings as described earlier. But if you know what to look for you can determine what it is either way.

The poor riding of 5000 is quite likely to be a result of excessive play in the axleboxes and/or poor maintenance of the correct clearances. The springs might also have been rather tired.

 

I had it on good authority a number of years ago that 45110 has Ivatt frames. 5000 was largely original albeit with odd driving wheels.
I don't think 5000 went rough for any other reason than she was original and SVR loco's in this era were almost common user like BR engines and got well used.
Mind you it could not have been that bad as she was recorded at just over 80mph on the N&W so it may have been a case of rough in comparison to. I doubt if the driver would have pushed too hard if she was really rough.

Cheers Dave

 

As I remember the thickness of the frames was said to be 1.25" which seemed surprising.

Cheers Dave