VT - 5043 to Edinburgh - 26/27/28 May

Ben

My wife + I sat down to brekkie on the FANTASTIC Berliner+ had 2 surprises

1.My veggie brek (+dinner) were served by some very familiar + cheerful faces from VT. The chief steward got our carriage served very efficiently+wore his VT badge "with pride" I had assumed a German catering crew. Everyone looked tired on sunday night with the waitresses saying they were flying back.Amazing organisation from Neil with vital catering support from VT. Did you cook my veggie dinner?If so,cheers!!! 03.1010 was aided by ND/RTC in its restoration+ I think I saw GB on the train. Nigel + Tim Littler(GWT) hoped to go but couldn't.

2. Sat opposite at breakfast was a very senior military railwayman who had suggested running the RTC Longmoor tours with 600"Gordon"(via Borden with 31639/77014 etc on various sections) He had arranged the open day at Longmoor when 196 was named(seen last week in Belgium) His wife regaled us with stories of the "St Trinians'Train Robbery"+ the local convent girls who joined in the filming.......!!!
Yes, a tour can have MANY diff memories AS WELL AS the max speed on Shap(vital tho that is!!)

3. As a 13yr old I watched 4079 leave Paddington for Plymouth on that famous tour(which 4090 was on!) I wanted to travel but had insufficient funds. VT heading for Dawlish-no I mean Plymouth-will enable some "unfinished business" to be settled. NR seem v v good in FGW land at special events with good timings. Messrs Hopwood + Galton at FGW can be helpful friends as well.

4. Freight operators comment in Rail/Mod Rlys that signalling decisions in Scotland can be stricter than parts of England. Stories of freights waiting 60 - 120m at night to slot into their path north of the border were common a few yrs back.
Nearer London the ethos is to "keep going whenever possible" especially on the SWT/Southern territory. I agree wih Nigel(5944) that early departure can cause problems when no loops exist to path a special near a very busy terminus like Waverley. VT did well to be allowed Haymarket-Waverley in my opinion.
The new prposed TPE t/t looks like more trains Carlisle Lockerbie Edinburgh.....it wont get any easier.

My apologies for a somewhat rambling post......!!

 

Oooooooohh! The Adrian Shooter retirement special recreation society? May have to get saving...

 

Mr Depper,

Whilst everyone on this forum has been listening to many of your occasional rants for a number of days now, to my knowledge, none of them have actually so far heard that at VT we have had literally dozens of compliments and commiserations from an overwhelming proportion of your fellow passengers who have said that they enjoyed the tour, despite the many set backs. I am afraid that many of your comments do demonstrate a clear lack of knowledge of the mechanics of organising such activities much as do the comments from the lunatic who advocates suing Network Rail. What we do has to be a partnership between NR, WCR and VT. As in all partnerships things occasionally go awry for one or other of the parties, but the day that you start engaging the legal profession, all that happens is you lose the plot and the ongoing co-operation of the sued party. It costs lots of money and it's just not worth it. Commentary such as this demonstrates a very clear lack of any knowledge or experience in such matters.

During the course of the weekend we had countless numbers of passengers come up to various members of the management team to say how much they were enjoying the tour, and as late as this morning one man rang expressly to tell us that his trip on the Forth Circle on Sunday was the best trip that he had ever been on. During the whole of the weekend staff on the train included the Chairman (Michael Whitehouse) The MD (me) TLW's Chairman (Vic Michel) and our marketing Manager (Ben). We have established that between us we had 4 direct complaints from passengers - one of which was probably a double count of one complaint to two people. I am sure that the saner members of this forum will not be surprised to learn that none of us received an approach from you. You even had the opportunity of Michael and I standing by the loco wishing everyone a good night on return to Tyseley on Monday evening, and failed to avail yourself the opportunity of making your point, presumably because of the limited audience and similarly limited chances of advacing a cogent argument.

When things go wrong it is our long (and occasionally bitter) experience that there will be those passengers who see the reason of the situation and usually a much smaller number who think they know better. I very much doubt that any of the critics on this forum have ever had to sit and make a judgment on such an issue, (or for that matter do it on the hoof), but the one thing that I can tell you is that it is rarley easy and often lonely, and you can guarantee that you will not be popular with a number of the affected. That is the problem with decision making. My view is that we had a large number of people who had invested considerable sums of money in hotel bookings, which they would have lost had we cancelled. By the time we were informed of the situation it was too late to inform many of the participants who had probably left home for Tyseley, Wolves, Crewe etc to join the train, so further people would have been out of pocket for petrol and train fares. I would suggest that many of the people who came to us to compliment us on what had gone on would have been on the team Depper bench baying for blood had we cancxelled. In this instance I stand firm in the conviction that we did the best we could and basically pissed off the minimum of people possible. Sadly one of them was you. But you really have ranted for long enough and it is time that you moved on to decrying this weekend's crop of diesel piloted tours being run by other operators.

All best wishes

Bob

PS Why didn't you take this up with Ben when he was standing by your table for half an hour talking to the lads from the Severn Valley on the table opposite to you. You could always take a leaf from their book on how to have fun and enjoy yourself despite adversity! You could be in danger of becoming a most determined malcontent.

 

Folks, please remember if you book with VT and things go wrong please don't expect an apology, refund or polite treatment. Just remember that to them the customer is always wrong and expect rude replies and personal insults if you don't accept that.

 

I for one don't accept that. I think VT are one of the best and most imaginative tour operators, and I'm glad that they take the time and trouble to come on here and explain things. Too often this forum is taken over by the moaners. I have no worries about travelling with them again. Thanks to Bob and Ben for being part of the forum and giving us their insights to the industry.

 

Sorry to say this, & without taking sides or going into the whys & wherefores, as I have said before I find the responses from senior members of VT a bit blunt & below the belt also very sarcastic , verging on downright rudeness. Totally unprofessional in fact. It is members of the paying public you are dealing with. If I were spoken like that by a company rep in any trade or business, even in privately, let alone a public forum I would never deal with that company again & urge others not to.

 

Right, I think thats 7 cancellations for the Scarborough trip then now my cousin who made the booking has been informed of that post , as has already been explained I never said anything to Bob or Ben as what exactly were they going to do about about the poor timings once underway ?, as I have explained countless times in this thread I held NR responsible for this farce and not VT/WCRC, You wonder why I didn't say anything if that's the kind of reply I could of expected ?.

If paying over £2000 as a group and not getting what you paid for is bad enough, to be then be slagged off for daring to suggest the events that took place were not acceptable really does take the biscuit and suggests a shocking lack of PR skills by a company in the Tourism business that needs customers money to survive.

I still haven't seen an acceptable answer to the reason why timings were only issued 3 days beforehand, only had a barrage of insults and sarcasm, including from those who were happy enough to take my money months ago before biting my hand.

Thankyou and goodnight!.

 

You expressed an opinon and so have Bob and Ben. Where's the problem? Bob & Ben aren't allowed a right-of-reply?

 

Having travelled on this trip I myself was getting seriously annoyed by Carlisle on the return and had a number of questions that I wanted answering. Having spoken to Ben at Crewe and heard his frank and very honest account of what VT (pretty much what he wrote on here) had been through in managing to get what they did out of NR they have my utmost sympathies. The moral of this story is that if ANY criticism should be laid at VT is that better communication on the Monday would have been very beneficial and nipped in the bud the speculation that was going on the train. The only intercom message given was, as a previous poster mentioned, so inaccurate it was literally laughable.
The diesel assitance in this instance was unavoidable and the correct decision in this case, especially given 5043 started a fire on Shap WITH diesel assitance. What wasn't acceptable was NR delivering the most ridiculous set of timings at just 4 days notice when this tour had been planned for a year. The up trip (particualrly between Preston and Carlisle) was the worst I have ever experienced behind steam and the return was that slack I think even Tyseley's panniers could have kept time. I did wonder whether whoever timed this trip realised 5043 was 75mph limited? Much of it called for just 45mph average point to point times which is what is generally provided for 5's or halls. As a big fan of steam, this weekend really tested my patience at times and I can really see how some may have been put off. I will i'm afraid think very carefully before spending such a big amount on a tour again in the future, purely because I can't afford to commit such a large sum and risk a reoccurence.
On a plus point we did have a fabulous day out in Edinburgh (such a friendly city) and seeing a castle cross the forth bridge was an unforgettable experience. Ray Churchill also delivered some spirited running before it went downhill on the Saturday and on the return. Vintage Trains did their best here and I don't hold any gripe with them, but Network Rail planning office seriously ruined this trip before it even left Tyesley.

 

It is apparent to me that you have little experience of making serious decisions - then having to justify them in front of the people whose finances you have just committed for better OR worse.

As Bob has noted he was aware that he had 500 people who had committed themselves to expenditure of around £500:00 for the weekend giving a net figure of £250,000:00 [or in simple terms £1/4 million]. Bob and Ben [the VT men] (sorry - couldn't resist) have clearly set out that NR had met their part of the deal by granting a path to Edinburgh and back plus a Fife Circle extravaganza on the Sunday, WCR had provided locomotives virtually on demand to meet a condition that weather imposed but hadn't been included in the initial plan and VT felt it best to go with what was on offer rather than cancel and deprive many expectant punters of a weekend treat.

My son was on the train and had looked forward for over 6 months to an experience of the Castle attacking Shap and Beattock and being part of the 1st Castle to cross the Forth Bridge; he was obviously disappointed at losing the attacks but appreciates the efforts made to have the Castle leading as far as possible and the support of NR and VT staff who negotiated it and set out to enjoy the trip across the Forth Bridge.

Like many he was disappointed but accepts that no-one was to blame for a spell of weather than forced many operating decisions that not only affected steam traction - I believe buckled rails were also encountered during last week at some locations affecting normal trains.

It is surely about time that many "protesters" accept that whilst steam traction is legally entitled to Open Access there is still a responsibility on steam operators to bear the whole industry in mind when operating under Open Access, including noting whether their operation on the network has consequences for other train operators. The Tyseley team are sufficiently expert to know both what their locomotives are capable of and their limits and therefore accept guidance when offered - even it does mean disappointing the customers - including using diesel traction to ameliorate the possibility of lineside fires.

The basic question is simple - listen to NR and continue steam running or listen to complaining customers and lose the right for ever.

For a team which has taken a Castle to the most unexpected locations on the BR network, has managed to best the Bristolian record, has initiated the use of the mainline test run as an enthusiasts charter (albeit pay-on-the-day) and seen steam traction return to Birmingham New St (a station that is officially considered as an Underground Station !) then I will gladly accept their judgement against that of any malcontent.

As the VT team has often thought to themselves - if you have a problem with VT (and other TOCs) decisions and think you can do better - kindly take up the challenge; in short put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is.

 

If I made a comment of that nature to a customer in my line of work, i'd be reported to head office and repremanded at best or sacked at worst, it's the tone that's unacceptable.

 

I think looking at your ranting over the last week the VT lot have every right to reply however they see fit.

 

I think people trained in customer relations would disagree with that statement, an irate customer is usually irate for a reason and an irate response will never defuse or rectify it.

Businesses don't work on the "he started it!" principle.

 

Ah - but Network Rail employees, from the bottom to the top, don't understand the term "customer" qed by this entire thread!

 

Personally I like the fact that bob and Ben show some real passion because to be honest they were probably just as disappointed as you were that they couldn't run there tour as they wanted but from what I can gather it could of been worse and they did there very best personally if you want to complain you should do it face to face is what they are saying on the tour of course alright this tour won't be one to remember but also remember that considering factors you should keep a open mind when booking a steam charter one day or a whatever the duration anything can happen and unfortunately this time it did VT did the best they could with the situation and have explained they reasons for there decisions you don't often get this on a public forum they care about there customers and that clearly shows by the passion they show on these forums yeah the customer is always right but the fact the matter was out there hands. I feel for you David but I don't think you should cancel your next trip with more luck this would of been a trip to remember for you and VT and lets face it we don't always get it right so why should it be any different for VT or steam charters as whole for that reason. Forget this one move on to the next one and show some sympathy and some praise for the passion that you rarely see from people who make our hobby most the time as enjoyable as it is.

 

We understand that we have a railway operate apart from when a steam engine runs on the mainline...!

 

Ok Martin

I'll be blunt in that case - I've heard from a number of people over quite a few years who's experience of Bob is (and before you say it, I accept this isn't everyones experience) that he sometimes can be "difficult" to talk to, therefore I always took the opinion that it was best to say nothing to him than risk getting on his bad side, im afraid all his reply has done has reinforced my belief that it was better to say nothing at the time, rather than risk a heated arguement making the weekend even worse.

I've been a big supporter of VT and Tyseley in the past and defended them to the hilt in past accusations (view some previous threads for evidence) and even though some of my party have said "never again", I was calming down to the point where I would look at future VT tours if the product was right, that post by Bob however, was probably the straw that broke the camels back.

 

As I am currently £200 out of pocket while Network Rail try to deny liability, I'll simply say that their responsibilities run to far more than providing paths for tourist excursions, but as in so many other fields - there is an awful lot that Network Rail could improve on.

I wonder how Coucherland is going on?

 

Several members have reported posts within this thread, I am going to lock this down until we decide on what happens to it.

Cheers