Crewe Heritage Centre for Sale

I have neither the time nor the inclination to get involved in a personal slanging match with you, but perhaps you could point me to any part of my post which suggested that I was calling you a liar.

The fact that a number of organisations have withdrawn from involvement with Exeter West SB suggests to me that it is just not viable as a visitor attraction even as part of another set-up.. For the avoidance of doubt as you asked me exactly what I was saying, I am saying now that I suspect they came to the conclusion that not enough people are interested in it to make it worthwhile having it on their premises and that is the underlying issue which has led to the current state of affairs.

 

So there have it - if its not "viable" knock it down and build an industrial unit - what exactly is someone with that outlook doing on a preservation forum - perhaps he would be better on an industrial agency marketing board.

 

I have never been to CHC, But reading inbetween the lines, there seems to have been a lack of proper management of the site, who would allow a sub tennent to take more space without saying no, the problem isnt with Waterman, its with the trustees allowing him to dictate to them , he rents space, they are the landord and should have insisted on proper legal agreements in writing before allowing him space , exactly the same as anyone else who has their business on the site
But whats the way foreward, either CHC take the long term view and get tough with waterman and evict them, or they relocate themselves, the nearest suitable place is on the CVR prehaps the exeter group and others would do better throwing their lot in with the CVR more visitor numbers etc and that would allow the engineering centre to expand, However, there is one unknown, Tescos, if people start to complain about noise and smoke from the centre, then Tesco's would take action, and believe you me, they have more money and tame lawers than waterman could lay his hands on , and in the end game the engineering business could find its self having to leave and relocate

 

Income = (at least) Expenditure

That's what viable is

 

You also have to have the skilled men to do the job. A problem these days.

 

Absolutely. Seems a shame that these work experience programmes (which I wholeheartedly support) seem only to focus on Tesco etc, and not on engineering and mechanical jobs.

 

I think some of you should stop 'slagging off' Peter and some if his comments, all of then are very true! some of you just aren't taking in what Peter is trying to say, if you were a volunteer like myself you would all change your opinions, Lnwr are hard people to work with, don't listen to anything you say and think they can do whatever they like even if you have don'e then a favour! Like today for example they moved a locomotive that was getting worked on and after they had finished their move we asked them politely to put it back were they found it and they said they would, 10 mins later we go over and find it's in the same place as before their excuse was oh sorry we forgot we then discover we can't even move it ourself because they were doing some work on a boiler they put blocking the road! Some of you may not appreciate our situation but that's how it is every day!

 

Southport was unfortunate, but if you look at what they have got at Preston now, it was good business.

 

I'm at a loss to understand what the viability of the Exeter West project has got to do with the rights and wrongs of the CHC v LMWRCo. situation.

 

Isn't it about the viability of the whole CHC project?

I've been to CHC several times in the last 2/3 years for Raiwayana Auctions, but I've never seen any evidence of Exeter West Box there - an LMR Box yes, but only because it's adjacent to the cafe/toilets.

 

I have just looked at the CHC web site and realise why i have not been how much is there to see a few diesels which i can go and see in action closer to where i live.
There are very few successful site that have not running line if you exclude the two NRM sites which have a large number of high quality exhibits.
Didcot which is the same and very well established there is lots of competition localy the east lancs and churnet valley both of which i have visited in the last year.
How can you make it a better place to visit and get more people through the door if you can.
Maybe the best idea is to turn it into a engineering base that offers high quality training and employs young people from the local area

 

Southport - I was a material part of that transaction. It was not a "Centre" failing - it was property development leading to inward investment and relocation to a far better future than could ever have been achieved at Steamport.

Dinting was crass management by the BLS committee in 1982 - against my direct professional recommendations and why I resigned on the spot. The site remains unused and derelict to this day, a monument to poor management.

There is only one right and wrong at CHC and Nat Pres just doesn't "get it"

 

I think most people 'get it' Frank but not everyone agrees with your opinion (it's a discussion forum isn't it?).

There seems to be an opinion that LNWR are more valuable to the preservation movement for the skills and services they offer in restoring steam locomotives compared to what Crewe Heritage Centre offer as a musuem and a visitor attraction.

 

I would like to respond to some of the recent postings.

Firstly, I hope no one is giving too much credence to the extraordinary rubbish that has been posted by michaelh. To begin with, he apparently knows more about the siting issues with Exeter West than I do, despite the fact that I founded the Group in 1982 and, as Chairman, have been intimately involved in all the negotiations with the various parties over the years. Now, apparently, he even doubts the existence of the signal box at all, for he says that, when he has been to Crewe, he has seen no evidence of the signal box. Well, at at least the last two railwayana auctions our Group have had a sales stand in the Exhibition Hall, and we hope to repeat the exercise on April 21st, which is the next auction day. On these occasions Exeter West has also been open to visitors and in full operation.

Despite what he says there are no 'LMR' boxes at Crewe Heritage Centre - there is the large Crewe North Junction which was built by the LMS in 1940 and then towards the Chester end of the site is Crewe Station 'A' Box which was built by the LNWR in 1907 and is still equipped with its Webb-Thompson power frame from the 'Crewe All-Electric System,' the very first British system of working signalling other than mechanically. Finally, a short distance beyond Crewe Station 'A' is Exeter West, a GWR all-timber structure dating from around 1913 and equipped with a lever frame installed in 1959.

Going back to the question of LNWRHCo. as I have said previously we acknowledge that they provide a service to the preservation movement, but so do visitor centres such as the Heritage Centre if they are orgainised properly. There are many aspects of railway history and operation that cannot easily be made accessible to the public on a working heritage railway but that can be well-interpreted at a smaller centre. For example, the GWS at Didcot have been able to set up working TPO mailbag apparatus and they can now demonstrate this to the public. We at Exeter West have been able to make the box operate exactly as it used to but, because we are not controlling real trains, visitors can be allowed into the signal box and see what went on, something that most of them find fascinating. Indeed, when some special events have been staged at Crewe, our operators have reported that they have had difficulties because of the number of visitors who have crowded into the box. That does not suggest that people are disinterested, and that interest would undoubtedly grow if the Centre could be improved.

Remember - railways were not just steam locomotives. There was far more to them than that, and we know from experience that if you show the other aspects of railway operation to the public in a meaningful way, they get a lot from the experience.

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

There are other site such as the great central which operate TPO where they are better view in the line side setting it was traditionally seen in.
I think the real problem with the CHC is the lack of rolling stock to see i dont think that a few signal boxes is going to pull large numbers of people in most people assume that when the visit a railway heritage centre there are going to be locos coaches in good condtion that are easy to view as you would expect at Didcot and that is what the successfull sites here and in europe offer. I think if CHC is not going to be able to do this in the near fututre it may struggle.

 

I don't think anyone ever suggested that Crewe Heritage Centre would only be 'a few signal boxes.' But I have already explained earlier in the thread how one very effective display based on a piece of preserved rolling stock was summarily removed by LNWRHCo. (without permission) because they wanted more working space.

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group

 

I read TBirdFrank's comments with interst re Steamport Southport & noted that "you were a material part of the transaction" I was the Chief Negotiator in everything to do with the sale of the Southport site & removal to Preston.
Perhaps you could Pm to let me know who you are?

 

Who currently owns Crewe Diesel Depot? Could the whole of CHC + LNWR Heritage not move to the Diesel Depot where there is ample room for a running line (from the end of the diesel depot to literally Crewe Station), Ample room for both Parties to operate and actually get on together, this then means that people could come there from the Train, there would have to be a plan with regards to parking (maybe where Crewe North once stood? and then walk over)


One end of the Depot





From this aerial photo you could have some excellent locomotive line ups (something that you cant currently do), you could have model railway exhibitions, be open all week and try to get the passing trade of people at Crewe Station with both a cafe, shop etc.

What you would then have to do would be to sell the current land to a Supermarket, Tesco would probably pay for it just to stop any competition moving in next door. So get the council to Sell the whole land on the Basis they have to move ALL historical buildings to the new site?

In My opinion it would be better than the current center? You could even Contact the LMS society and LNWR society and get them to have some involvement in an area telling their stories? Plus your more likely to attract some loco owners with Under cover storage and maybe even the NRM would give them some exhibits?

Gavin

 

When I was at the Heritage Centre running an Exeter West Group sales stand at the last railwayana auction, I spoke to a long-time volunteer who seemed to know something about the old diesel depot. He reckoned it needs about £2 million spending to re-roof it. That's before you do anything else.

Given this fact I think that, in these cash-strapped days, the idea of anyone taking on the diesel depot without significant outside support is likely to be a non-starter. And it is very difficult to see where such massive financial support could come from.

Of course, if there is a Euromillions jackpot winner out there..................

Peter Jordan

Chairman, Exeter West Group