Tours Getting Cancelled

Hi All,

It seems some tours do get cancelled fairly often due to not enough bookings. Some of the cancellations are down to loco failure, but for the ones that are down to low numbers, could the touring companies do more to make sure they run? I'm sure its a great disappoint to them being not able to run it, but also to the people that did want to go on it, and now aren't able to. And to us that love to photograph them, video and see them go by, its another one we aren't able to see.

Theres probably two clear categories people fit into with the mainline tours, enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts, and I suspect that its the numbers of the latter that don't make enough bookings to make it worthwhile. It is difficult to market these tours, not only to find the right channel, but also its costly, even if it does manage to convert bookings. I suspect that the average age of people travelling on steam tours is very close to that of those who travel on cruise ships - I mean no offense by this at all, but more of a business opportunity in terms of the remaining market share that companies could go after.

Now, I know for those of us thats been on a tour, you don't want screaming kids everywhere while you're trying to enjoy your day out (and believe me I know because I have two myself), but is there a market segment of 30-45 year old couples or groups of friends that could be targetted in low cost marketing campaigns, more pro-active digital delivery, well-timed to maximise the uptake (for example, sending out marketing emails to a mailing list near the end of the month when people have just got paid to maximise disposable income spend).

More money could then be received for excursions, more would go to loco owners for continued maintenance and spend on other restoration projects and more locos could be returned to the mainline. I know everyone always goes on about the recession, but the fact is people do still spend on the tours - the Northern Belle trains at £300+ a ticket seem always to be full when I photograph them, and many of the steam tours that do run tend to be almost, if not all full.

Although everyone loves a bargain, and this is a good way to appeal to people, I don't think deal sites like Groupon and KGB are the way to go given the amount of profit you have to giveaway, and then split with in turn with them - while it gets exposure, it doesn't get instant profit and thats what we need in this industry to get as many locos restored and running again as possible.

What does everyone think? Is there an untapped market segment somewhere for people to tour? What other ideas are there to advertise, at a low cost, to the right audience? Could the enthuaists work in videoing and photographing contribute somehow to an online viral campaign for future bookings?

We are all, in the end, enthusiastic about these trains, so lets keep them going anyway we can.

J

 

Main line steam has never been easy and has had to cope with many new challenges over the years; what's another recession?

Keeping in touch with what people want and being ready to iron out problems as you go must be the key. The Elizabethan was £99, but had so much to offer that I was happy to pay the price.

 

Regarding the continued success of the Northern Bell, and VSOE by association, is that - according to what I've read - in a recession the top of the market and the bottom of the market will continue to do relatively well and both of the aforementioned operations plainly cater for the top of the market.

 

If I were looking fro a really special day out including dining - it wouldn't be enthusiast based trips. Ridiculously early starts, barmy finish times, rolling stock of indeterminate comfort and turn out. If dining is the chosen option, then the standard of food offered is simply not worth the premium over the basic first class fare; breakfast, lunch and dinner carry a premium of over eighty pounds on average.

A typical restaurant car brekkers was £15. Lunch - if you can call it that is basic beyond belief - not worth more than a fiver in anyone's money - so that leaves £60 for dinner. Sixty quid for a dinner?? with no choice of menu, eat what's put on your table - Not bloody likely!

OK - VSOE is around £400 a day - but just look at the quality, the choice, the presentation. Its no contest.

I understand now that takings are down right across the leisure sector so the recession is definitely biting, So - who will up their game to stay in business, and who will cut corners? Interesting times lie ahead.

 

Recession is biting, for some. Those who are catering for the top end of the market however are finding that there is still plenty of money about there, so they are struggling the least. Those, however, who cater for the family market, which so many of these summer repeat tours are aimed at, are finding that families have much less to go round and are now needing to make difficult decisions. Also tours starting in the south east are also finding life a bit easier it would seem, again no surprise in a recession. On this basis, Steam Dreams decision to re-brand itself would perhaps seem to be the correct one for their long term survival, unfortunately the flip side will be that families and people like myself will be priced out. This can't be good for the long term future of the overall industry and stings somewhat to an enthusiast like me. I agree that £99 for the Elizabethan was a good deal, it's just a shame the rest of SD's tours are the same price for what on the face of it is a much more basic day out.
To be honest I think that the industry is holding up quite well given the severity of the recession. There are really not a large amount of cancellations given the huge volume of tours that are being run. Previous years have seen a fair bit more red on UKsteam than at present. RTC's policy of offering discounted tickets on trains where they are struggling to break even has got to be the best policy. Cancelling a train will always incur a considerable cost to the promoter and adverse publicity, so receiving some income for seat is definitely preferable to none. I think more creative marketing would be preferable, but there has been some big improvements in recent years. A slightly less ambitious programme will probably be planned for next year though and I hope for all our sakes there are no casualties, because that harms everyone.

 

acorb.
Forgive me if I've misunderstood you but wasn't The Elizabethan a joint A1LST/Pathfinder venture rather than an SD production?

 

Having lots of friends and contacts around many of whom are connected to others such as Northern Belle they are most certainly NOT having the year you may think and are suffering the effects of market forces the same as everyone else, be it falling loadings on some trips or vastly increased marketing costs and other overheads rising to boot, as is every single other rail charter promoter involved in the UK just about including Royal Scotsman. VSOE and RS are still sound businesses backed by big resources + big finance though so will always find a way of delivering a succesful trip to those who book and rarely cancel.

It is easy to criticise and be brimming with excellent ideas until you actually try something first hand and trends that you could almost start to set your watch by within the day trip market up til very recently are starting to shift overnight. In my opinion (purely) there are going to be some big changes appearing in the next year or so as an effect of everything currently going on with a loss of some regular higher-cost repeat itineraries where the market is waining (but was only recently stronger) and only the cheaper (and consistently "easy-rider" ones) but consistently good operations like the Jacobite will for sure not be getting close to at least the review stage.

Ironically the photography community in some cases can still get more up in arms or heavily critical often the most when trains are ammended and cancelled whilst often 100x higher in volume than enthusiasts who may travel aboard a steam hauled excursion (yet generally not paying 1p towards the train being able to operate). But if we were more cocky and even jokingly tried asking for a £4-5 donation to plug the gaps of a loss making job then the mere suggestion would be vile yet the promoter is automatically villified if its not wanting to sustain or repeat a £10k loss that it can't continuously afford to cover. Yet I've occasionally read in other threads that these trains cost half what they actually do to run and promote by so-called experts and that profit margins exceed the average annual salary. Sadly I look outside and the chaffeur driven Rolls Royce has been hi-jacked seemingly! <sorry can't resist>

 

You are quite correct, Pathfinder were the booking agents - however they also charge a flat rate of £99 like SD.
Interesting post Kevin, many thanks for your insight and clarification on how the higher end market is feeling the pinch also.

 

Yours too?

 

This is a very interesting post and highlights for me a number of issues concerning the way steam promoters "put themselves across" to the family market, as well as how they organise their pricing policies. Let's discuss in more depth :-

Repeat Summer Tours

These are a great idea, and probably popular with NR and TOCs due to greater ease of planning, organising timings / crews etc. it seems that RTC have been the main proponent of these in 2012 with their DCEs, WSEs, RDs etc. Unfortunately there were just far too many of these planned for this year. I made the same point on the "RTC" thread a while back, and both myself and others voiced concerns there may have been some "method behind the madness" here in terms of offering a wider range of dates for trains than could be filled in the knowledge only a few of them would actually run. Bookings on cancelled tours could then be merged with those on the dates that had proved more popular creating a few well patronised trains. This could be described as good business practice possibly, but in the long term it has to be damaging to everyone in the industry due to the reputation of unreliability it could generate ? It's quite right I'm sure that these tours are aimed at the family market, and RTC should be applauded for offering "family fares" in all classes. Other tour promoters would do well to look at doing this themselves. I find it especially disappointing that not even discounts are offered for children in Premier Class (PC), and First Class on tours offered by some promoters, let alone "family fares" How can charging the Adult fare for a child in Premier be justified ? You wouldn't see that kind of pricing policy in any other catering / leisure activity I can think of off the top of my head.

Pricing / Re-branding

I can see why SD took the decision to "upscale" it's product, but as "acorb" says, this will have the effect of pricing out families and others on a budget. Unlike "acorb" however, I believe this will be damaging to SD in the long term rather than short as the unchecked and unrealistic competition between promoters spreads the diminishing market still further. The introduction of Premium Standard smacks of greed and opportunism I'm afraid as when you look at the difference between "old standard" and the new premium version it's hard to justify the price hike. The cost price of tea / coffee is negligible, and is a classic high mark up product in the catering business. The staff serving it are already on the train to serve premier class passengers their meals so the labour cost of them serving of tea / coffee in prem std during "down times" in Premier probably also makes this a negligible cost. The cost of a PS seat includes a healthy £10 premium per head on most of the "old standard" fares. It would be interesting to see how that compares with the cost of providing the "extras" to see how much is "mark up". Also, as per point above, no family fares offered, and only a very small discount for children, (15% roughly in Std and 1st), a paltry 7.5% in Premier Dining, and 0% in Pullman Style Dining ! Again, a fairly unusual child pricing policy in the tourism sector I would have thought ?

Another pricing policy I take issue with is that of mileage. As "acorb" points out, The Elizabethan was good value at £99 for a return trip from London to Edinburgh with a Deltic and Tornado, but then in September Pathfinder are asking for the same amount of money for a journey from Bristol to Southampton and back with the elusive "Braunton", while PC is a wallet emptying £225 ! What is that all about ?

It would also be good to see Promoters become more imaginative with their pricing if this unregulated "free for all" is to continue, e.g., a limited number of single fares offered as per VT on "The Marylebone Flyer", or reductions for "short hops", say Bristol TM to Taunton on a "Torbay Express" ! I understand the second option may only work where a tour doesn't fill on the "core fares" but as we have seen a number of tours cancelled this year, it strikes me this kind of option would be a good back up rather than cancel a tour that has seen limited support. Late discounts as offered by RTC recently are good but how about some more "early bird" discounts such as those offered by TBEL on the TEs when the tour dates were first announced ?

I understand there'd be a reluctance to tinker with Premier Class as this is the one class that seems almost guaranteed to fill, (probably due to fewer seats), but I'm sure there could be a future for some kind of "pay as you go / on the day" style dining option. Restaurant cars have been made to work on service trains for decades so I'm sure something could be put together for charters, where you have a captive market on some of the longer trips, and a fewer people getting on and off the train. UKR and Pathfinder have dabbled in this with their catering contractors, "Creative Rail Dining" and "Frying Scotsman Services", but more like a "Travelling Chef" style concept than a traditional restaurant car with a number of sittings etc. Alternatively, could it be possible to book one or two meals in advance rather than the three meal "blow out" common to PC on the long full day trips where you often leave the train so bloated it can feel like you've eaten your own seat !

Anyway, those are my thoughts, and will no doubt be derided and denounced as fantasy by some on here. Cancelled tours present questions that need answers however, and I hope Operators won't turn their back on them as they will do so at theirs and the Industry's peril !

 

Very interesting, thought provoking post.

 

Many thanks, though it was 2 hours and several cups of coffee before I was ready to hit "post quick reply". Such is the lot of insomniacs !

 

Pay on the Day dining car services could be a risky option. With the current set up of having to pre book, the catering provider knows exactly how many meals will be required. Make it pay on the day and it becomes a bit of a guessing game. The only sure way of covering demand would be to plan for a sellout but this would mean wasted food if not all dining seats were sold and this may be a risk that operators may not wish to take. I accept that "pay on the day" dining has worked on service trains but any unsold provisions etc. can be made available on the next working or even the next day if stored correctly.
I'm in catering and it's much easier to budget for a day after day operation than a single event.

 

Agree with you it's risky but I still think it's worth some thought as I would definitely be attracted to such a service and I'm sure many others would be too if it were available. I'm not suggesting three course meals should be available on demand but maybe some kind of bistro operation that uses "cook chill / freeze" products would have some potential perhaps. Like I said, just a thought on one way Tour Operators could become more innovative.

 

Right. I thought you were on about a full dining service on a "pay on the day" basis. A "chicken ding" option would be a different thing altogether as many preprepared meals can be cooked from frozen and of course need only be cooked when needed. You'd need a few microwaves to keep waiting to a minimum though if it turned out to be popular.

 

Just looked at the price (out of curiosity) for a flight for one adult and one child (between 2 -12yrs) on British Airways for a weekend flight to Frankfurt. It came back with the same price for the child as the adult.

Seems charter trains & flights have similar constraints as there are only a finite number of places you can sell.

 

Out of interest what was the actual fare?

One thing that I noted, out of interest, was that the Great Briton v, which I accept was an expensive tour to operate cost more for full dining and hotel option than a seven night all inclusive break to the Caribbean at the same time, which was high season out there.

Please note that this is not a criticism of the tour operators, rather a reflection on what else is available in the leisure market for the same money.

 

Just had a look at VSOE day trips and no sign of any reduction for children their either.