Tours Getting Cancelled

To clarify, yes there are three distinct classes on steam tours which appear to attract three different groups of customer with different needs, expectations etc but this thread has been created to address the issue of tours being cancelled. For this reason we need to think "outside the box" of what has "always been", and into what "could be". Surely that's not as revolutionary as is being implied here ? If nothing needed changing it would have been right to have planned the number of tours that were planned for 2012, and this would have been vindicated later by reports that all those trains planned had run had at least reached break even point with others running full. In the event a number of dates were "canned" so obviously surely it's a given that change of some kind is necessary ?

The "pay on the day" meals service idea is just that, an idea. I'm not saying it could work, or even if made to work, would make money but I think it's at least worth doing some market research on a full train to see what punters think. Yes, there would need to be some thought to make it work but that's why you employ a firm of caterers. They have the experience to know what can and can work and still be cost effective. The trouble is that too many of those providing the catering on steam tours are left over from the old ICOBS school so consequently are probably as resistant to change as many members of this forum. By contrast we have SD and VT who in SDs case use a private caterer who don't only supply rail catering, while VT do it in house, and very well too I believe from speaking to those who have experienced their dining class first hand.

While doing this research, they could ask other questions about what changes customers would like to see, or would encourage them to come back. I don't recall ever being given a comment form on a railtour, and only rarely do stewards come round asking people whether they've enjoyed the day etc. If there is any negative feedback how often is it passed on or a senior member of the Tour Operator's team, (if on board), called to deal with it ? This has to change if we're to address the reasons behind tours being cancelled. It's been suggested on here already that the reason for the cancellations were too many tours planned in the first place. That suggestion was rubbished by an ever present few so we're no further on. If it's not too many tours it must be something wrong with the tours. You can't have it both ways !

 

Can I ask where the evidence is that there are more tours than usual getting cancelled due to poor demand from customers? Having just had a look at Uksteam there is only 6 tours cancelled due to insufficient interest up to August, 4 with RTC (including 2 Dorset Coast express) and 2 for Vintage Trains. The 2 Dorset Coast expresses are the only repeat schedule ones. The Scarborough runs in September were only ever subject to demand and have been pulled with 2 months notice. Where are these cancellations? Where are promotors deliberately booking too many tours and slimming the programme to suit demand? There is no doubt that there are fewer punters this year, but programmes were designed on last year when tours booked well. Promotors can not predict the furture, they haven't mastered that skill yet, but on what we have seen so far this season (and from what I saw on the NWCE on Sunday) they are doing pretty darn well in difficult circumstances! I can't help thinking this thread is a bit of a storm in a tea cup, yes we need to modernise but please don't dream up problems. Lets also give credit where credit is due, there is more steam running than any of us could even have dreamed of only a decade ago, when there wasn't a recession.

 

Steam Dreams have issued questionnaires on a number of tours I have been on over the years, both mutliday and day trips. There was a prize to encourage people to complete the forms - bottle of Champagne I think.

 

I suspect the thread was started in order to address the question of why tours that have been cancelled so far have met with this fate, i.e. is it due to something internal or external ? I have always said I thought the number of "repeat itinerary tours" planned this year was optimistic so is it unreasonable to ask why this happened. Given we entered a period of austerity in 2010 which continued in 2011 and was forecast to deepen in 2012, I wouldn't have thought it needed a crystal ball to foresee that demand for tours this year would not be as high as 2011 yet the same business model was used. I would ask why. Wouldn't it have been better, given the economic forecasts being issued in 2011 to have planned a slightly slimmer programme in 2012. It wasn't as if 2011's trains ran full to bursting after all so I don't buy the idea there were no clues that business this year would be down on last. I would say however that the "system" doesn't appear to help here. Given RTC planned to run mostly repeat itinerary tours this year with many using a "tried and tested" spec, also used in 2011, why was it necessary for them to plan their 2012 programme that far in advance anyway ? As the majority were repeat itinerary, surely it could have been agreed that proposals to run these could be forwarded to NR much later than for a non repeat tour allowing greater flexibility in time allowed deciding what to finally go with ? I would also have thought NR should be more flexible over this anyway given the recession, and the fact this must make the job of forecasting for Tour Promoters more difficult.

It seems to me that if 6 tours have already been cancelled this year owing to insufficient bookings, (that's nearly one for every month of the first 7 of the year), there will be more cancellations in the second half of the year when we start loosing the daylight, the weather gets colder and people conserve funds for Christmas etc. The cancellation rate therefore seems high to me so to use the word "only" in this context hardly seems appropriate ?

I can understand the Promoters' dilemma, and like I said I think the system under which they have to operate needs to be looked at so they can be more responsive to market trends. To be complacent however, and contend there is no need for concern over the cancellations thus far is tantamount to being in denial in my view.

 

didn't think this season shows that many more cancelled tours due solely low bookings than in recent years really...
most cancellations have been out of guage/pathing/loco not FTR or Olympic issues...
In view of the economic climate i am amazed how many full or almost full trains are running. (i go on many)

the general feedback i hear from the top 3-4 operators is that business is very or pretty good but no one has room for complacency...
SDreams has made some changes to their standard class product to improve surroundings and i think its pretty good and is more appealing to more families
wives, and couples. It may not suit all die-hard enthusiasts who wish to couple as many steam miles with economy but i think that is your point here, SD ARE
seeking out different markets with a view to obviously offer a better product within an acceptable price. seems to be working so far.
The extra costs are higher than you think and it is not greed as someone mentioned here nor is it a few stewards during downtime pouring cheap coffee.
i can assure you these extra costs for SD super standard are quite high per seat load factor.

may i add it is your premier dining pax that makes you your money and any profit. if the whole train was standard then your margins are small and barely break even. any risk in changing the format in these times is just that, a risk...so if you start dismantling or stripping away the product just like the blue chip airlines and package holidays and then people do not like it. pay for meals on board and such like is bean counter ill-thinking imho.

NO ONE had ever made money and got rich in the past from selling on-board catering in British rail days nor under Privatization ...
hence we do not'have many hot meals on the train left anymore except a few (first class virgin and east coast at seat, and FGW all of who are dwindling their
products)
So for the buffet cars on steam tours to often take good 4 figure sums on a day trip is damn good.
However in view of the types of carriages we operate and the limited hot catering arrangements then i think it is amazing what the chefs can do
for the dining pax.

FYI SD have changed their caterers this year on their trains to proven on-train specialist companies and not the previously contracted 'events' style company.

there are frying scotsman, gravy train and creative train catering as the main 3 on board caterers (there are some others) but these 3 service the main 4 big tour company trains.

in all i think this season is going pretty well so far. a lot of effort has been made to keep trains running in light of alot of difficulties and often a last minute lack of motive power on occassions.

 

Very nice it is too in my experience, bit basic but does the job nicely for a reasonable price, a hot bacon or sausage bag is just the trick once you start lagging on a long day out.

 

True but there are plenty of tours where kids would be welcomed, the VSOE image is more one of fine wining and dining for adults in luxurious style from a former age, not a Toby Carvery with onsite Whacky Warehouse and screaming kids running round the place, though that failing is largely due to crap parenting as much as anything.

 

Having operated more full day trip non-dining operations in the UK over the last decade than anybody else that still seems to be around in 2012 not everything is just about feeding your face and food, food, food + gimmicks. It can all have its place for some folk and on some trains but to many a good atmosphere on the train, including regular hot drinks service to compliment a picnic hamper and stewards who look after the elderly and infirm, are friendly and approachable (not just there for the door safety, window hanging and abrupt ordering round of the public) matters more than claptrap about a gricers grill or wanting to know the 100 different places people claim they would most like to visit (but not book necessarily unless the date, fare and pickup points all suited). Passenger feedback is easy to get when your office staff and stewards already engage in conversation with those who travel and you have a team who work well together and communicate. In the same way constant running commentaries are found intrusive by some so are surveys and too many gimmicks to the day.

I remember around 5-6 years ago family of diesel ethusiasts feeling as strongly as "ECO" and a few others about all these sorts of issues in the railtour industry. They took it upon themselves to try and put things right but I think with the greatest respect have realised no end of things they probably never dreamt of when setting out to improve things and run their own trains with the greatest of intentions. Its not necessarily the same goldfish bowl it looks like from the outside when you jump inside and see it from the other side of the glass. Ralph must be one of the more rounded and level headed commentators on here as he knows what the travelling public think and has a fairly comprehensive knowledge of the industry and its 2012 constraints. Its a doddle being an expert and knowing how everybody should be doing eveything but just go out there in the real world and actually try implementing all these things and doing it with the obstacles, resources and constraints you will be given which will change year on year.

 

Yes, now I agree with that. The VSOE tours would be devalued if taken over by swarms of screaming kids.

My response to spamcan81 was prompted by what appeared to be an "child phobic" remark suggesting that children should be priced out of tours on principle as it would make HIM feel more comfortable. No thought for the loss of business and future interest in Railtours that would bring notice !

 

Pleased to hear that, though the GG doesn't seem to appear on steam tours for some reason. Presumably because these nearly always convey full dining and there wouldn't be the resources available to provide it.

 

Never said anything about alienating them. I'm in catering and I do a kids menu so I'm hardly child phobic but not everyone is a parent and even those who are like some time away from the kids on occasions. Just as there is a market for child friendly operations there is also a market for "grown up" friendly operations in certain sectors. Whilst I do not believe in children being "seen and not heard," neither do I believe that the little darlings should be allowed to run amok and do almost as they please. That's down to the parents I know but poorly behaved kids can be a turn off to other passengers/customers.

 

Response to ROGace's post #45

ROGace

didn't think this season shows that many more cancelled tours due solely low bookings than in recent years really...
most cancellations have been out of guage/pathing/loco not FTR or Olympic issues...
In view of the economic climate i am amazed how many full or almost full trains are running. (i go on many)

Response

Well the DCE and Waverley cancellations are bookings related as far as I know, as is that of the West Somerset Express this Saturday. The two VT cancellations were also due to poor support but I have more sympathy here as these were one offs.

ROGace

the general feedback i hear from the top 3-4 operators is that business is very or pretty good but no one has room for complacency...

Response

Well they wouldn't say business was bad would they ? I enquired about availability (no particular class of travel), on the Tamar Devonian about a week before it ran, and was told there were "very few" seats left. When I checked online I found it was possible to book at least 10 seats in each class. Now I wouldn't describe 30 seats as "a few"

ROGace

SDreams has made some changes to their standard class product to improve surroundings and i think its pretty good and is more appealing to more families
wives, and couples. It may not suit all die-hard enthusiasts who wish to couple as many steam miles with economy but i think that is your point here, SD ARE
seeking out different markets with a view to obviously offer a better product within an acceptable price. seems to be working so far.

Response

Agreed, Steam Dreams are trying something new, which I applaud. Without knowing the costs I can't really comment whether the mark up is fair or not. It's interesting they kept the price just shy of £100, (bit of price psychology there), but having experienced the service on the July 9 Clan Line tour I thought it was very good, though significant that they were making very few sales of beer / sandwiches etc. They are disgracefully overpriced however, and when you're heading to a destination adorned with Wetherspoons, shops and other venues, you're unlikely to cough up £3 plus for a bottle of "Spitfire" !

ROGace

The extra costs are higher than you think and it is not greed as someone mentioned here nor is it a few stewards during downtime pouring cheap coffee.
i can assure you these extra costs for SD super standard are quite high per seat load factor.

Response

Ok, well maybe the mark up isn't as I as I thought but giving away tea and coffee is not an expensive concession so I'd still be interested in seeing a costrofit ratio.

ROGace

may i add it is your premier dining pax that makes you your money and any profit.

Response

So are we saying Premier Dining pax subsidise the rest of the train ?

ROGace

if the whole train was standard then your margins are small and barely break even.

Response

More a case of making margins small I suspect

ROGace

any risk in changing the format in these times is just that, a risk...so if you start dismantling or stripping away the product just like the blue chip airlines and package holidays and then people do not like it.

Response

Well we won't know until we ask them will we ? I think given your remarks above, the current dining set up is seen as something of a "cash cow" so no wonder there's a reluctance to try something new so long as this service is well patronised. I always travelled full dining myself, but in those days the PD fare was LESS than the Standard fares are now, and we're not talking decades ago by the way.

ROGace

pay for meals on board and such like is bean counter ill-thinking imho.

It's got nothing to do with "bean counting". I despise the "bean counter" mentality and have seen the damage it can cause first hand. "bean counting" is about short term cost cutting to please shareholders / business owners, without considering the long term damage such cost cutting may cause. This discussion is about adding value to the catering service already being offered so "bean counting" has nothing to do with it.

ROGace

NO ONE had ever made money and got rich in the past from selling on-board catering in British rail days nor under Privatization ...

Response

This isn't just about "getting rich" is it ? It's about developing the business to the long term interests of all involved. Oh, but here we come back to the lack of overall leadership issue !

ROGace

hence we do not'have many hot meals on the train left anymore except a few (first class virgin and east coast at seat, and FGW all of who are dwindling their
products)

Response

Well at he risk of going "off topic" I have my own views on the decline of "on train" catering. A lot of it has to do with vastly improved "off train" catering at stations etc, and the rest with changed eating habits, i.e. an increased appetite for junk food and snacks. Unfortunately the TOCs have been lazy in their response to this and have seen it as an opportunity to cut costs / jobs and increase profits for shareholders rather than develop the business and improve services.

ROGace


So for the buffet cars on steam tours to often take good 4 figure sums on a day trip is damn good.
However in view of the types of carriages we operate and the limited hot catering arrangements then i think it is amazing what the chefs can do
for the dining pax.

Response

Agree with you on that which only serves to further increase by belief there is scope for development of the on board catering options though I do accept the coaching stock is a limiting factor.

ROGace

FYI SD have changed their caterers this year on their trains to proven on-train specialist companies and not the previously contracted 'events' style company.

Thanks for the clarification here, I stand corrected. I notice the new companies aren't named in any of the SD literature or website but obviously the previous partnership with the "events" style caterer was wound up for one reason or another. My main point stands however that they are not from the "old school ICOBS" legacy.

ROGace

there are frying scotsman, gravy train and creative train catering as the main 3 on board caterers (there are some others) but these 3 service the main 4 big tour company trains.

Response

I think "Creative" is now "Creative Rail Dining", formally "Premier Train Catering" headed up by Paul Brooks and one of the old ICOBS Executive Chefs with the others formed by other former senior ICOBS personnel.

ROGace


in all i think this season is going pretty well so far. a lot of effort has been made to keep trains running in light of alot of difficulties and often a last minute lack of motive power on occasions.

Response

There's certainly been some "winners" as well as "losers", (I'm no glass half empty type), and the effort / commitment shown by many of those involved to make things work speaks for itself. I just urge everyone not to be complacent, and don't assume all those holding the purse strings have the best interests of steam preservation at heart.

 

dear eco, just to let you know, on all steam tours>
on all A1Trust tours, steam dreams, pathfinder and UKrailtours, Torbay express and RTC i work on, or travel for pleasure hot bacon or sausage baps/rolls are usually always available from the buffet car or served at the seat (SD)
these are made in the kitchen car usually all morning and sent down in batches for sale in the buffet.
Sometimes we do hot pasties in the afternoons or hot sausage rolls (pastry)

both Ralph and krm here echo the state of play at is stands with steam tours and frankly the product offered now gives the customer more choice now than ever before.

most of the negative comments seems to come from photographers who never pay a penny to help any of the loco societies that run the locos for them to photograph (nor do they travel on the trains)
and also from so-called enthusiasts who want so much in terms of routing, locos and timings...and often these
passengers are the first to squeak indignation if the price goes up by a few quid.
(but the tour operators are well aware though that many of this group are pensioners, maybe with very limited incomes so they bend over backwards to always ensure there are seats available at the best cost possible, ie £99 quid for the A1 trust trip ELIZABETHAN which represented amazing value, in fact we had 6 standard class coaches on that, with a hot buffet)

We love to see young families on board, we get family groups in all classes and to see young lads (and little girls) having the time of their life on board is
a great feeling. we often get disabled children on board and the joy on their faces is heartwarming.
It is not a cheap day out but nor is Alton towers etc etc...it is the parents choice if they wish to pay for full dining or just take
picnics, as i said we get all across all the classes...there are some family discounts around on the trains.

one thing i notice on most steam trains is so many repeat passengers... recession? what recession LOL!!

 

That's good to hear. Just ignore the miserable gits that dislike happy children. <BJ>

 

in response further to ECO, MY REPLIES IN CAPITALS....I AM NOT SHOUTING LOL BUT THERE IS NO COLOUR I CAN USE TO DIFFERENTIATE!!


ROGace
may i add it is your premier dining pax that makes you your money and any profit.

Response
So are we saying Premier Dining pax subsidise the rest of the train ? YES IT DOES


ROGace
if the whole train was standard then your margins are small and barely break even.

Response
More a case of making margins small I suspect MARGINS ARE MINUTE (JUST LIKE CHARTER AIRLINES)

ROGace
any risk in changing the format in these times is just that, a risk...so if you start dismantling or stripping away the product just like the blue chip airlines and package holidays and then people do not like it.

Response
Well we won't know until we ask them will we ? I think given your remarks above, the current dining set up is seen as something of a "cash cow" so no wonder there's a reluctance to try something new so long as this service is well patronised. I always travelled full dining myself, but in those days the PD fare was LESS than the Standard fares are now, and we're not talking decades ago by the way.

NO WAY IS PD A CASH COW. I CAN ASSURE YOU NO ONE IS GETTING RICH. IT DOES PAY DIVIDENDS WHICH IS PUT BACK INTO ORGANIZING MORE UNUSUAL TOURS, BETTER QUALITY ADVERTISING, UPGRADING COACHING STOCK AND OF COURSE HIGHER COSTS WE ALL FACE AT THIS TIME ON A DAILY BASIS.
PD FARES OVER THE PAST DECADE WERE AROUND THE £149-169 MARK AND NOW ARE £179-£200+ DEPENDING ON THE TOUR.
PD FARES UNDER £99? WHEN!
CUSTOMER FEEDBACK IS WELL SOURCED AND USED TO BENEFIT THE OPERATION AND MAKE CHANGES OR UPGRADES.
EXACTLY WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING.
TOURS WILL GET CANCELLED AND IT IS THE CORRECT FORMAT IF THE OPERATOR DOES THIS IF WHATEVER REASON BOOKINGS ARE LOW.
HE CANNOT AFFORD TO TAKE A HIT OF £10000'S BY RUNNING AN EMPTY TRAIN. THAT IS COMMERCIAL SUICIDE.
DCE, MINEHEAD AND OTHER LONDON BOUND OR STARTING FROM EXCURSIONS WERE CANCELLED DUE TO OLYMPIC RESTRICTIONS AND NOT LOW BOOKINGS.
THE REASON YOU MAY HAVE FOUND THAT 30 SEATS WERE STILL AVAILABLE ON THE TOUR YOU GHOST CHECKED IS THAT STOCK IS FLEXIBLE AND WE CAN SWAP A STANDARD COACH FOR A PD IF WE WANT AS SALES DEMAND. OR AT TIMES WE CAN EVEN ADD A COACH IF THE TREND IS GOOD ON BOOKINGS.

THE SOUTH AND LONDON AREAS HISTORICALLY SELL WELL AND DEMAND IS GOOD.
IT DOES SEEM THE NORTHERN DEPARTURE POINTS ARE SELLING BETTER THAN EVER AND THAT IS GOOD NEWS SO THE OPERATOR
IS LIKELY TO TAKE THE RISK WITH MORE TOURS IN THE FUTURE BUT THE COSTS IN POSITIONING LOCOS ACROSS THE UK IS ENORMOUS AND
THAT COST HAS TO BE BORNE BY SOMEBODY. (YOU KNOW HOW MUCH IT COSTS TO POSITION A 747 FROM GATWICK TO MANCHESTER?)

I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY TOUR OPERATOR THAT DOES NOT HAVE THE STEAM TOUR INDUSTRY AT HEART.

 

There's a world of difference between happy kids and unruly brats with feckless parents. The former are a joy to have around the latter are most certainly not.

 

We only do ''happy'' Spamcan lol "! see the new A1 Trust's kids club Tornado Team Safeguarding Tornado's future

i don't ever see unruly families/kids on-board only unruly enthusiasts usually LOL

 

I wasn't referring specifically to rail tours where, I suspect, the cost keeps the feckless away. Not the same on heritage railways unfortunately. Was on the NYMR a couple of Mondays ago and there was a gran, mum and two kids on the train from Whitby to Pickering. The kids were screaming at the top of their voices, jumping up and down on the seats, standing on the table and generally misbehaving without any admonishment from the adults in charge. This was not "kids having fun" but kids out of control and spoiling the journey for the other passengers, some of whom relocated to another carriage. Fortunately me and my partner only went as far as Grosmont so didn't have to suffer for long. The outward journey was much nicer. Well behaved kids who were more interested in making a fuss of our dog than creating mayhem.

 

May I totally endorse all of Ian's comments regarding children both those who are well behaved and those that are not.

 

Apologies, but I'm getting confused by the quoting and don't want to attribute it to the wrong person. But to pick up on the point about SD using rail caterers now and not events companies.

I understand from the 9th July trip was SDs first outing with their new long term caterer Ampersand, which from which I can gather are an events company.

Dad and myself do approximately 5-6 tours a year these days, and always look to take the dining option for the larger seats, and guaranteed food. We got caught once when we didn't when late running and timings meant there was not enough time at the destination to find somewhere for food, and we never used to bring our own as we always try to avoid lugging as much as we can across the Underground &/or the Schlep to our local station. By taking the dining option we find we have maximum time to explore the destination, and that's why we choose it.
However on the 9th we did get rather hungry as breakfast was not served until after the Salisbury stop!