LNWR George the Fifth Steam Locomotive Trust and proposed new build

Maybe it might even visit the Severn Valley one day!? We think it's a great engine for galas.

 

Thanks Kinghambranch for your support. We hope one day to see the new-build LNWR George standing beside a grand GWR George and aside other classic four-coupled express engines, not least the marvellous 'City of Truro'. Now that would be a sight!

I'm very glad to hear that all this talk of a new-build of an LNWR-type has inspired you to look into the LNWR further - I'm sure you'll find it a fascinating journey. Studying Crewe, Derby, Swindon, St Rollox or even Ashford or Brighton practice etc provides a fascinating glimpse into the rich history of British rail - each company developed their own practice and internal culture which makes for endlessly interesting reading and I find that by knowing more about say Doncaster practice, I better understand Swindon practice and visa-versa (Not least because of the early Doncaster & Swindon links through Archibald Sturrock). Comparing the richly proud and defiantly individualistic cultures of Crewe and Swindon equally makes for fascinating reading.

Really there's nothing wrong with being a proud Swindon man who find himself wandering off to Crewe occasionally!

 

The Southern is the most underrated of the Big-Four in my opinion (Besides, there's something magical about the Southern's late livery of Malachite Green - a Schools or Lord Nelson in malachite looks spectacular!) and I find it's three (well four if you consider the SER and LCDR distinct entities) main constituents very interesting. While LBSCR practice all but ceased with grouping, the LBSCR for me undoubtedly had some of the most elegant and lovely looking engines of any pregrouping British railway company. We're so lucky to still have 'Gladstone' with us for a glimpse of a Stroudley express engine in it's late-Victorian finish - Stroudley's glorious 'improved engine green'. Both Billingtons and Marsh were equally capable of producing good-looking engines although they may not have always been successful designs. And while it's very closely related to an GNR Ivatt Atlantic I look forward to seeing the new 'Beachy Head' storming the Sussex countryside. Hopefully she'll be able to make the London to Brighton mianline run some day.

Thanks too for your positive comments and feedback. We're pleased and humbled by the response we've received thus far but of course we will need all the support, particularly financial, which can be mustered. Every bit helps! We've a long way to go but we're very pleased with the momentum thus far.

As Paul (L&NWR) has said, we hope that a completed LNWR George will attend a SVR gala someday. We'd hope so!

 

Hello jtx. Thanks too for your well-wishes. Your cash is clearly going to good causes there. Of course if ever you find the opportunity to make a donate to us, we won't say no! Nonetheless your interest and support is most welcome.

While the focus will be on preservation lines, we think this class will be well-suited to mainline use. As you've highlighted, these were powerful engines for their size and perhaps some people forget that these were front-line west-coast mainlines express engines in their day and occasionally stood in (or even pulled a sick 'Scot' or two) after they'd been superseded by LMS 4-6-0 types. As you say, 13 coaches might be out of the remit of this engine but certainly we're sure that she'll surprise a few people.

As we've said before, given the interests of the trustees, an LNWR-type was on the cards but after much deliberation, not least with experienced and knowledgeable voices in the preservation scene, the George the Fifth class was settled upon precisely because these were excellent engines. Compact, simple, elegant with clean, handsome lines, hard-workers and well-liked by their crews. 4-4-0's are thin on the ground and 2oth century LNWR express engines are now non-existent. We think she'll be equally at home on preservation line and mainline.

Thanks again for your support!

 

A small update. We now have a news blog for the project up-and-running. The blog is accessible from the main website but is also standalone. Go to the 'News and Progress' link on the main site or head directly to: 'http://blog.lnwrgeorgevtrust.org.uk/'. The links to the two are also in my signature.

We hope to have more news over the coming weeks.

 

Good luck Knotty on your excellently founded project. Will follow your progress with interest and no doubt contribute.

 

Cheers Austerity. It's really gratifying for the team to receive such a positive response from the majority of posters here, including yourself. We really appreciate it.

As I've said, early days but we seem to attractive solid attention from a range of ages and are focused on the next phase of planning, including some of the topics raised in this discussion; that is a homebase and assessing and investigating where to commence with the build. The trustees are heavily engaged with these issues now. Nothing concrete to announce just yet but when does something arise, which may be publicly broadcast I'll be sure to post it here!

 

Great to hear that there was a great response at Railfest. Looking forward to hearing more about the loco and will potentially look at donating at some point.

 

Thanks Dan. The response was very positive at Railfest. We really appreciate the support and if you're able to donate at some point in the future then all the better! By the way, I see you're in Haywards Heath. It'd be wonderful to have a completed George visit Bluebell and to stand alongside or even double-head with the H2 Atlantic. Perhaps the George could haul the LNWR observation car and royal saloon (although I understand this this is for sale) they have there. I'd like to see that.

 

That would make a splendid sight.

Great to see a project being done properly especially as I got my Steam Railway today which says that the J39 has gone quiet as has the LNER L1.

 

Best wishes for this project. I too am a GWR man , by way of the LNER, (born in Lincoln!) but I've always had a strange fascination for the 'Wessie'! Fuelled probably by OS Nock books like the 'Races to the North' & the recent photo book of PW Pilcher.
Also there is something heart breaking about the railway being the 'Premier Line' , with its magnificent track & opulent coaches & infrastructure & huge organisation being swept away in the grouping! Although the NW faction had the last laugh in the 50s with 'BR Lined Black' !

 

Also would like to add , agreeing with a poster above, that its so long since we've had a 4-4-0 running on the main line, we've forgotten what they can do.

 

It's a bit of a win-win really; a pre-grouping livery that won't be off-putting to all the fans of BR-lined black out there!

Thanks for your support. This is a serious undertaking and a huge commitment in time, effort and money. We're also at a very early and rudimentary stage of the process despite the idea first being muted about 3 years ago. However the support has been wonderful to date and we're pleased with the recent momentum.

 

A small update. Members of the trust will be present and manning a stall at the Llangollen Railway Gala on the 1st and 2nd of September. If you find yourself there, drop by and have a chat.

In other news, our website is now taking online single donations in addition to the standing order form provided. The latest news concerning the trust and the build can be found on our blog: LNWR George the Fifth Steam Locomotive Trust and new twitter feed; https://twitter.com/lnwrgeorgefifth .

 

Make sure you include that centre bearing

Dave

 

I'm there on both the Friday and Saturday. Do you know who is there on the Saturday? Will be good to catch up with you lot. Gav

 

Hallo Gav! Regrettably I won't be there myself on this occasion but Paul Hibberd and Tom Mainprize will be there manning our small stand. I''ll let them know. I'm certain they'd like to meet you and the Patriot team as well.

For my part I'll be sure to dispatch another donation towards the commencement of 'The Unknown Warrior's' boiler over the coming month.

 

For anyone who might has reservations about the suitability of a George for mainline use, members Tom Mainprize and Paul Hibberd have studied the numbers, taking Nock's account of 'Deerhound' in 1912 and comparing it with the Duchess of Sutherland's recent performance on the West Coast Main Line. I've been requested to post it here.

Food for thought.

46233Duchess of Sutherland (2012) vs 1662 Deerhound(circa 1912)
article is intended to give you an idea of the power and speed that the George the Fifth class was capable of in service on the ‘mountainous’ section of the West Coast Main Line, rather than a contest of ‘which is best’. The runs in comparison are 46233 Duchess of Sutherland on the Royal Scot PMR tour from Crewe to Carlisle on 9 June this year (reported in Steam Railway magazine,issue 404, p.81) and 1662 on the Crewe to Carlisle portion of the 10am Euston to Glasgow express circa 1912(reported on p.89 of O S Nock’s book ‘The Precursor Family’).

Firstly one must put both runs into context and perspective. 46233 was taking a moderate load of 380 gross tons, 1662 was taking a load of 370 tons gross. So the loads are broadly comparable, perhaps even more so given the rolling resistance of the stock in usea hundred years ago. Secondly it is not entirely straightforward to ascertain what timing points Nock was using. For example was his ‘Shap summit’ the modern milepost thirty seven and a quarter, and his Tebay (the old station) appears to be half a mile south of the modern ‘Tebay North’. Thirdly 46233 stops in Carnforth loop forwater (roughly 0.31 miles South of Carnforth Station), 1662 was probably doing around 65mph at this point and does not stop at Carnforth. So precise comparison is not possible but it does give a good indicator of the George’s performance. We can use 46233 as the benchmark (albeit a very high one!) being one of the most consistent and higher performing engines ever to grace British railways.

From Carnforth to Oxenholme verifies the above statement, 46233 from a standing start passed Oxenholme in 16.57, whereas 1662 took just 13.34, this was due to passing Carnforth at speed. Having troughs enroute it was unnecessary to stop for water, unlike with mainline tours nowadays. The Oxenholme to Grayrigg section, with the two miles of 1 in 173 on the ascent to Grayrigg shows performance one would expect of both engines, 46233 took just 8.56 compared with the 11.20 of 1662. The speeds of both engines were clocked, 47mph for 46233 and a minimum of 32mph for 1662 in passing Grayrigg. 46233 then takes 5.25 from Grayrigg to Tebay (old station)as against 5.44 for Deerhound and so passing through the Lune Valley things would have been pretty much neck and neck (and would Deerhound have been picking up water on Tebay troughs).

From Tebay (old station) it is 5.5 miles to Shap summit and not surprisingly it was here that Sutherland pulled ahead, gaining 2.08on the George, taking 6.38 as against 8.46. So the total time for Sutherland was 37.05 for the 31.2 miles from the loop as against 39.44 for Deerhound (for the 31.4 miles Nock quotes from Carnforth station to the summit).

This was a very fine performance for the George, but not one that was out of character. For the 59 ton 1662 with a comparable load shows an incredible performance from such a small engine with only 175lb boiler pressure available, but it did have the benefits of high temperature superheat and long-travel piston valves. 1662’s average speed throughout was a striking 47.3 mph and the average drawbar horsepower seems to have in the region of 950.

Taking all the factors together, I think it is a fascinating comparison between a quality climb of Shap on a Scottish express achieved in the conditions applicable around a hundred years ago and an excellent steam performance in today’s conditions, and the experience taken as a whole is a surprisingly close run thing – and in the absence of these plucky little Georges it is pretty clear the West Coast mainline is missing something sensational.

If you would like to keep updated with progress and become a ‘Friend of George’ click here and fill out the form.If you would like to donate click here for the forms, or donate via Paypal here. If you have skills that you think would be beneficial please let us know.


By Tom Mainprize and Paul Hibberd
LNWR GEORGE THE FIFTH STEAM LOCOMOTIVE TRUST
62 High Street, Buntingford
United Kingdom, SG9 9AH


Email:thomas.mainprize@gmail.com


LNWR George the Fifth Steam Locomotive Trust

 

Gavin
Look forward to seeing you on Saturday - I will be able to give you an update on engineering enquiries made and investigations underway.
We would urge all interested people to sign up as a friend on our website -there is no charge for this!
We are especially interested in people who can help us man stands (as well as those who provide money!) and would also appreciate suggestions as to our future calendar of events to attend.
Paul