Relaying is going to become very expensive!

A large number of standard gauge railways have such machines in varying states of disrepair. The faintly anarchic ownership pattern complicates getting these back into service and there is always those dreaded two words "new boiler". The latter issue really has got to be faced up to by "the movement" whatever the size of the loco. and the smaller machine the less formidable the financial burden. I really don't want to be unkind so I won't be specific but a situation where large express engines undergo general overhauls only to be stopped shortly afterwards for major boiler problems is not an impressive one.

This thread is showing a similarly anarchic tendency in wandering away from the original subject and I plead guilty in respect of my own part in this!

 

Don't think this thread has gone that far off topic at all as on of your earlier on the matter said that it was time to stop the use of larger locos except where absolutely necessary. Oh, it's not just larger locos that have run into boiler problems after a major overhaul, depends on how far back you can remember.

 

A vain attempt to drag the thread back to topic..

plenty of clackety clack track all across europe.. (indeed there was a train crash tonight in Poland on exactly that track)...

any reason if the supply of decent short lengths are in short supply in the UK, it couldnt be bought from Europe (didnt Network Rail buy their pointwork from Poland at one point ?).. there's loads of it especially in eastern europe and it's still being made used and deployed daily and on mainlines too..

 

This argument in favour of tank against tender is often used but is fundamentally flawed by the simple fact that adhesion weight decreases significantly as tanks and bunker are emptied. A more fundamental advantage is the simple fact that a tank loco does not have to drag 35-45 tons of tender behind it. That's at least one Mk1 and probably two pre-group coaches.

 

I'd suggest that the chief prohibitive factor would be that of transport costs. Hauling second-hand rails back to the UK must surely be a "coal to Newcastle" situation?

 

Fair point, though depending on which line you are on (i.e. how long each round trip is), if you keep topping up the tanks every trip, they will spend most of the day with a significant amount of water. With regard weights: Wiki gives 84 tons for engine + tender of an Ivatt 2-6-0 class 2; and 63 tons for the 2-6-2T version (21 tons difference). So not quite a full Mark 1, but getting on that way.

Tom

 

or an 8F from Turkey to the UK.
The aims of both is the same.. to run a railway, even if one is less glamourous than the other.

 

"The faintly anarchic ownership pattern" - you mean people spending their own money on their own property?

 

True; but there's a subtle difference. One is an abnormal load, a one-off, an almost unique event which will attract publicity and (hopefully) sponsorship by the nature of its newsworthiness; the other is essentially a consumable item which is not only available but AFAIK in current production in the UK. Hence my analogy.

The cost diferential between shipping used (and therefore potentially unusable) second-hand rail from Eastern Europe, and buying new over here, might not be as large as some might think. The suggestion earlier in the thread of "group buys" would seem to make sense, but unless things have changed dramatically since I was last actively involved in preservation, the anarchy referred to in regard to ownership of locomotives exists in a more diluted form in the ownership of preserved railways.

I would suggest that if any organisation is seriously interested in purchasing rail from Europe, their first action should be to contact someone like Alleley's, who would be able to give them a price for shifting it, before they even look at anything else. Given that the bulk of the shipments would, I assume, be made up of stock 60' lengths of rail, this will definitely up the price, for the simple reason that it requires a specialist trailer, together with a second crew member, and will, unless I'm very much mistaken, come under STGO regulations. The other option is to move it by rail of course, but as always that would require at least one if not two lorry journeys to get it to the respective railheads. And then there's the weight; others more mathematically minded than me can work it out for themselves but you do not get a lot of track panels on one 44-tonne GVW artic.

It really isn't as simple as many think; BTW I'm a lorry driver by trade, and a former transport manager.

 

True transport costs money, but you investigate also using a cheaper European based shipping company.
You need'nt stick it on the back of a lorry.. it could do part of the journey by ship to the UK.
Rail will be in metric lengths so probably not 60'.
But as mentioned earlier wasnt NR buying pointwork from Poland recently, didnt the SVR need some rail parts made in China.. and of course 5029's tyres came from South Africa..
At the end of the day lumps of metal get shipped around all the time. If it's economic to ship scrap steel from Hull to China.. it can't be so uneconomic to ship reusable steel around Europe ? 100tons of scrap steel in Poland will cost you around £6000... that was the going rate for a scrap steam locomotive a few months back, depending on how keen they are to be rid of it.. the price may even be less. Whats the going rate in the UK ?

However if cheaper rail was available in the UK, then obviously the maths stack up to buy it here obviously..

 

Michael,
You should realise that loco and rolling stock owners should only spend their money if paulhitch thinks it suitable. Heaven forfend we actually do it to please ourselves.

 

Yes, I realise that my view is a bit old-fashioned and paulhitch is better qualified than most to tell people what they should spend their own money on.

 

Rail from Europe is widely used already on NWR.
Luccini from Italy and an Austrian manufacturer are just 2 that I can think of at the moment.
Continental rail lengths are fairly similar. very minor variations due to the wagon lengths used for carriage.

New FB 113 rail from TATA (Corus) is currently priced around £750 per 60ft rail similar for new BH rail.
Current scrap rate for rail is about £170 / tonne
So bearing that in mind is it worth the haulage of second hand rail from europe.

 

duplicate post removed

 

No I mean people not spending their own money on their own property either because they don't have enough for the purpose or are dammed if they will let some other so and so finish the job they started and no longer have the energy to complete. In these cases "preserved" is hardly an accurate description.

 

I recall the K&ESR imported new FB rail from Poland for part of the Bodiam extension, opened in 2000. This was said to be more cost effective than buying used rail from the UK, given the prices at that time.

 

One major consideration to be made when thinking of using Continental rail is:-
Are the various surfaces on the rails compatible with available varieties of Fishplates or Weld moulds.
Specials are available but can and do cost a lot more.

The NYMR has in the past welded up a number of joints to avoid having to fit odd types of junction plate.
In some cases 2 plate breakages can equal the cost of a weld.

 

Where is everyone getting their track materials from these days? The Spa Valley a few years ago was obtaining it direct from Network Rail, but with the creation of the NDS and the centralisation of all materials at places like Whitemoor it has become frustratingly difficult. I have been trying to purchase sleepers for over 6 months and the process is difficult and that's without the issues of them returning your calls/messages!

Matt

 

Sounds a real pain! The new sleepers mentioned in my original posting are Karri wood (?Australian) but I suppose if you are using bullhead rail you will need either wooden ones which are adzed to take the chairs or else concrete ones similarly arranged. It would appear you might be stuck consequently with Network Rail as a supplier which does not sound like the best of news nowadays. Hope it goes well.

Paul H.

 

There are several sleeper suppliers out there who can supply relayable quality timber or concrete sleepers. Quite a few in the Doncaster/Nottingham area. Just Google. Network Rail have not done us any favours by centralising disposals and taking away the local managers ability to dispose so the days of cheap/free materials seem to have gone. In my experience NR aren't able to compete with the traditional suppliers where you can generally pick up the phone and organise a delivery in a few minutes.