If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

FR/WHR questions

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by lynton&barnstaple, Aug 26, 2012.

  1. ADJF

    ADJF New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Gwynedd
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Hi

    Hi are you getting your Bala and Llanberis Lake railways confused?
     
  2. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    13
    I think I am, sorry I stand corrected! I think I would have been well off track in my race if I was at Bala! Still maybe a link between the WHR and the Llanberis lake railway could be an option one day?..... It would also give the option of a link to the Mtn railway - perhaps an extra attraction for walkers - ie get the WHR out to Snowdon, over the top and then back to Carnarvon via the Llanberis railway?....
     
  3. TheBarge

    TheBarge New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2009
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    10
    Occupation:
    no, just visiting.
    Location:
    relatively speaking, always moving.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Earlier in the thread the Bala Lake Railway was mentioned - the idea was to use the old Blaenau Ffestiniog to Bala standard gauge trackbed.

    The Llanberis connection would involve the old Caernarfon-Llanberis SG line - I don't know much about it so I'm not sure how feasible it would be.
     
  4. Andy_Elms

    Andy_Elms New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do either Llanberis or Bala Lake railway want to be connected ?

    Hell, do the operators or passengers of F&WHR want the extra mileage?

    Now, Cwm Orthin and Rhosydd Neuadd connector - that'd be a line to die for...
     
  5. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    The cost of missing the connection is similar to the cost of a taxi to take the people who miss it to Llandudno Junction. I doubt this comes anywhere near the cost of running an extra engine all through the autumn. Especially on lightly loaded trains full of coach parties who don't pay full fare.
     
  6. Gwenllian2001

    Gwenllian2001 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2007
    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Maesteg
    There is also the cost of the lack of credibility for an advertised connection. In China it would be termed 'loss of face'.
     
  7. TheBarge

    TheBarge New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2009
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    10
    Occupation:
    no, just visiting.
    Location:
    relatively speaking, always moving.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    To be honest I doubt either the Llanberis or Bala Lake lines would really want it. The Blaenau to Bala line certainly isn't worth relaying from a commercial viewpoint. I suppose a line to Llanberis might be commercially viable, but I wouldn't think anyone is seriously considering doing so. Certainly the F&WHR aren't looking to increase their route mileage yet, there's already 40 miles worth to be getting on with!
     
  8. houghtonga

    houghtonga Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    109
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chartered Engineer
    Location:
    Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The commitment to maintain 40 miles of railway is not a light undertaking especially when a sizable part of it has been layed in a short space of time - I envisage there has been a lot of work undertaken to plan the future staggering (or balancing) of future renewals since it can't be allowed to become life expired at the same time since time, budget and probably manpower constraints will obviously limit the PW depts output.

    Gareth
     
  9. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2008
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    302
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Railway servant
    Location:
    Worcester
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I've heard this argument before and not sure I buy it. The WHR was opened in stages, not one go, so the wear will be very different on the Pont Croesor - Porthmadog section compared to Caernarfon - Dinas. Because it took from 1997 to 2010 to open the whole line there should be scope to allow the each section to receive renewals without needing to replace 25 miles of rail in short period.
     
  10. GeoffH

    GeoffH New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    2
    Unfortunately, I can't. I'm in the minority in thinking they're good fun though, so I always volunteer for them
     
  11. Roger Dimmick

    Roger Dimmick Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Narrow Gauge Heaven - Porthmadog, Gwynedd
    ...because the last thing the railway wants to do is disappoint trainloads of excited children and parents - most of whom have travelled many miles for a chance to meet Santa - because a train fails in section due to poor railhead conditions.

    Not forgetting the fact that having two locomotives on a train provides double the interest for the passengers - who, after all, are the reason that the trains are running, not the egos of the footplate crew... :wink:
     
  12. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    13
    It would be a pertinant point to ask would either railways system like to be connected to the WHR or the FR? Now I guess each system would probably want to retain its management and identity, but let's consider the options of physical linkage between railway systems of the same gauge.... (for arguments sake you could also try and link the TR and the CR).

    Now at the moment each railway is in effect an attraction. To a certain extent each system complements each other, but they also rival each other (Mr and Mrs None railway enthusiast may well take the kids on a couple of systems, but would they take them on all of them? Likewise with your coach trips, they may well take a ride on a few of the systems, but would they really ride on all of them?) This adds an element of competition between all systems. However there may be an alternative as far as Linkage is concerned.....

    At the moment each system relies on road based transport to feed them. So for example if you want to go from the WHR to the LBR or the FR to the BLR for example then you need a coach, car or bus to travel between. However once you link these systems you effectively establish an alternative transport network which could be wholly rail based. That way not only are they railways attractions (as long as you take the time and care to preserve their identities which is important), but they are also a way to get to the attractions (as far as I can see a lot of the attractions in Snowdonia are very near Narrow Gauge systems which could be linked). You could do this by allowing running powers over each system for through trains, but allowing each organisation to take care of its own stock, services and timetables. In time if there was co-operation maybe even a central 'clearing house' could be established, so that rather than one system getting all the profits, all systems contribute and are able to draw out according to their needs for running and for projects. Dare I suggest you could even introduce an equivalent of Railtrack (just a lot better) responsible for maintaing the PW of the whole system? It would also allow stock to be moved to facilities for maintenance via rail rather than by road as required. Who knows there may even be some freight capacity with a proper network? There may be issues with loading gauge and rail gauge systems between certain systems, but at least as far as passenger interchange is concerned it would be relatively simple to have an exchange station, in time maybe even transporter wagons, bogie changes or additional rails added?

    Not saying that's how it will be, but it certainly would offer a way of all networks a way of avoiding the competition aspect, plus it might help bolster some of the networks which are reportedly struggling (for example the TR) whilst adding an extra string to each system's bow. In effect you end up with a 'national' narrow gauge railway system operating in the areas where Standard Gauge would not be feasible.
     
  13. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,206
    Likes Received:
    2,072
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hilton, Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    There is a comparable network and the WHR/ FR is associated with it; it is of course the Hartzer Schmalspurbahnen where a comprehensive network links several towns each with its own standard-gauge railway. It would be a long-term project but it could lead to North Wales becoming a world-class regional centre for narrow gauge railways and thereby attract European - and wider - enthusiast visitors. However, if this happened, I think that the "normal tourist" service would have to be largely diesel with steam haulage mainly on the current routes. A narrow-gauge diesel railcar from Bangor to Caernarfon would be a sort of "mundane commuter" introduction with similar traction from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Bala marketed as a scenic "over the mountains" trip. It's worth thinking ahead like this; the FR has evolved tremendously since 1954 and I don't think that it should stand still for the next 50 years.
     
  14. mickpop

    mickpop Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,408
    Likes Received:
    5,603
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cheshire
    While it may be entertaining to idle away a few moments daydreaming about fantasy railways let us not waste too much time believing creating such a network of narrow gauge lines is ever going to happen, particularly given the warning signs from some existing railways.

    For a start the capital works for such a scheme as Bala to Blaneau Ffestiniog would make th WHR construction costs seem like a drop in the ocean. At least they had an existing trackbed for the whole route whereas a large part of the old route from Bala is under a lake and would require a deviation that would make the Ffestiniog one seem like constructing a short siding and gaining enough height to rise above the lake level coming from Bala would create a fierce gradient. The stretch from Bala Junction through the old station is now an industrial estate.The Bala Lake Railway does not really go anywhere so there seems little point in making a connection. Now if it was rebuilt back to Corwen.........! Similarly the standard gauge route from Llanberis to Caernarfon is largely built over and the old Padarn Railway ran to Port Dinorwic not Caernarfon and whil it could partly make use of the old Bangor - Caernarfon route the last mile into the latter town is comprehensively built over. Any other links over the Llanberis Pass etc forget it although I liked the suggestion of the Croesor - Rhosydd - Cwm Orthin link which would require two funicular stretches or a long tunnel and anyone who has seen the Rhosyyd incline and the wrecked wagons littering the bottom would think twice about ascending - now that is a fantasy route to consider!

    Given the cost and journey time of a full trip over the WHR I can't see many tourists able to afford or endure a Caernarfon-Porthmadog-Bala return trip. Enthusiasts alone would not make this scheme viable.

    Comparison with the Harz system is unrealistic. For one thing it is metre gauge and allows larger stock while, more importantly, it is already built. I am not sure what sort of subsidy it receives from the national or local government but I can't see it surviving purely on revenue.
     
  15. jtx

    jtx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,868
    Likes Received:
    855
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Happily retired
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Can't understand the problem. I love double - heading, it's seriously good fun, whichever engine you're on.(leading or train)Although I'm speaking from a Broad Gauge perspective, I assure you that, for instance, driving a Pannier Tank, with a Manor or a 51XX a couple of feet behind your bunker, is outstanding, both visually and aurally. Equally, being the train engine, with the pilot in front, "giving it large" is brilliant and a cherished and privileged feeling of how it used to be.

    I have not had the pleasure on the F&WHR yet, but I can't imagine it being any less fun.
     
  16. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    418
    Exactly. I'm sure the FR watch the costs of what they are doing, and why not have some double heading when you can justify it for whatever reason?

    As far as joining up railways is concerned, I believe both Caernarfon-Lanberis and Caernarfon-Bangor are physically feasible, the former using the std. gauge formation for the lower part and the Dinowic line for the upper part, and of course the Caernarfon-Bangor route is mostly preserved as a cycleway. But the problems would be immense and the costs formidable. (Dual gauge Menai Bridge - Bangor, anyone?)

    I believe both have been seriously considered by various bodies and rejected, at least until more prosperous times. Certainly there was discussion of the Caernarfon-Llanberis link in the local papers several years ago after the first part of the new WHR was open.
     
  17. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,376
    Likes Received:
    3,981
    Location:
    i.o.m
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Can't have too much fun!! However according to the rule book the pannier should be coupled inside the Manor or 51xx LOL . Ray.
     
  18. Baldwin

    Baldwin Guest

    A network in North Wales, hasn't this already been discussed in another thread some time ago ?
     
  19. 48DL

    48DL Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2008
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    24
    Location:
    North Warwickshire
    Careful Mr Baldwin, you may start discussing a railway in Shropshire!!! ;-)
     
  20. Baldwin

    Baldwin Guest

    OK, LOL, can i just say that double decker trolley buses and freight trams are my sure bet for the future !
     

Share This Page