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Railways, structures, fundraising and democracy...

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Jamessquared, Feb 5, 2013.

  1. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    There is no one structure that will suit all lines; and a lot of the structures that exist will reflect the circumstances at the time and the saveyness of the financial input that those lines had.

    There are advantages of having charitable status for parts of the entity and another limited company for the commercial operation (ComCo)whether its a company limited by guarantee, a private company or a plc as there are restrictions on what charities can and can't do and the availability of gift aid etc As has been mentioned if the size of the operation warrants it you may have no choice but to register for VAT (although ecen for a small operation with two or more stations this has advantages) . The size of the operation will determine which of these is best.

    The tax man will look to the accounts of the ComCo when calculating any tax charge - and it is no good crying to the taxman that yes we made a profit but look to the future we will need it to fund so and so.
    You therefore need a mechanism to minimise the taxable profits of ComCo.

    You may also look to have a third entity InvesCo designed to ring fence the charity and ComCo from expansion of the line going sour.

    However at the end of the day there isn't one model which will fit all lines.
     
  2. geekfindergeneral

    geekfindergeneral Member

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    That is interesting to know. The combined WHR/FR is an achievement of Biblical proportions, a UK response to the Harz system. It will find a sustainable funding mechanism, one way or another.

    Changing the subject, I wonder what is the commercial value of a steam engine at the Booking Office? We know it has one, because a railway without steam engines is like a zoo without big cats – it’s actually just a Donkey Sanctuary. People will go, but in much smaller numbers. See the Mid-Norfolk or Keith & Dufftown for details.

    And what if anything is the difference in value at the Booking Office between a big engine and a small one. If you take an Austerity tank as the base point, the cheapest way of steam-hauling a significant train, how many more tickets do you sell if you have a Standard Tank. And onwards and upwards, a really big engine, one where £500,000 might not cover the 10 yearly. How many more tickets will the really big engine sell? It’s worth noting that Flying Scotsman even when it had an availability rate in excess of 0% has always been a bit of a disappointment in this department ....but no-one really knows why.

    The train can be twice as long with a big engine than a little one, but if that just means twice as many unsold seats, you haven’t got very far.

    The Bluebell did and does well out of Stepney – on its own almost useless for commercial trains but a fine character engine as well as a distinguished lump of real heritage – and when the Commercial Director suggested they could have a Stepney every day of every year if the real one’s periodic holidays were covered by another one painted yellow, the MPD took very badly to the idea and the cost of going to war with such a core department and losing the enthusiasm of the unwashed was not worth the value of non-stop Stepney action...but I am not sure this was a commercial decision in the truest sense.

    In a similar vein, a railway I know well was challenged by their Civil Engineer to up the spend on the track, or downgrade from red to blue route availability. There was hardly any discussion – the money was forthcoming. But it smacked a little of a Blokes-Waving-Their-Willies contest. There was scant real analysis of what it would do to sales if a Manor was the biggest most glamorous engine on the premises. Would the normal passengers have minded, or would they see a big green lined out photogenic engine with a name and be happy enough to consider a return visit. Will nothing less than a Hall do that? I don’t pretend to know, but I have my suspicions.

    We can probably tease out a scale of comparative costs for big v small engines (pence per chuff, perhaps), but I do not know of anyone in the heritage movement who has ever come up with a conclusive evidence based answer that links those costs to sales.

    GF-G


    i)By value at the Booking Office, I mean real money you can take to the real bank, which includes paid-for photo-charters but excludes any bloke standing in a lineside field fiddling with his focal length.


    ii)By normal passenger, I mean anyone not reading this Forum or the railway press who can be enticed to come out for a train ride and not ask for their money back or post something horrible on Tripadvisor.
     
  3. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    Very difficult to get empirical evidence as so many other factors come into play for example how many visitors know what will be at the head of the train.

    What I do remember reading - and I'm not sure if they still do this - was that the Talyllyn found a marked increase in visitors if they had an engine in steam at the Wharf even when the main train had left.

    Of course this comes at a cost but it does flag up to passers-by that here is an active railway open for business.
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    GFG - take a read through the Bluebell motive power thread. Our loco director didn't give absolute prices, but came to the conclusion (for us at least) that non-superheated class 2s were most cost-effective: a bigger loco couldn't do enough extra work to pay the extra costs of overhaul. Of course, we need class 4s to cope with our heaviest trains, but we don't need, for example, class 7/8 motive power, at least not on pure operational grounds.

    Also worth taking a look at seats per ton, which soon makes the case for vintage rolling stock, if only the operating manager would wake up to the fact. Just take a look at how many seats a railway like the IoWSR can haul with relatively small class 0P - 2P locos, and compare that with just how heavy the same number of seats would be if they were in Mark 1s.

    I predict (possibly only slightly tongue in cheek) that in 20 years time there will be three classes of heritage railways: those running mainly class 2 - 4 motive power with predominantly wooden carriages; those who wish they were running mainly class 2 - 4 motive power with predominantly wooden carriages; and those that are no longer open. OK, that is maybe a bit extreme, but if you want 300 seats on a train, why haul about 250 tons of dead weight of steel when you can put the same number of seats in grouping era coaches that are 5-7 tons per carriage lighter? Relatively few lines will have the luxury of pre-grouping carriages, (because mostly the movement has left it too late), but the more progressive lines will be running 30 - 32 ton Bulleids / Maunsells / Staniers / Gresleys / Colletts, and the less progressive lines will be running 37 ton Mark 1s and bemoaning the fact they need bigger, more expensive locos to haul the same number of passengers. On a 6 - 8 coach train, that means anywhere between an extra 30 and 56 tons for a given train, which depending on your gradients, probably turns a requirement from a class 2 - 4 to class 4 - 5.

    As for very big locos: at least according to our Loco Director, there is some advantage in having one flagship loco, and people remember names and often come back to look for a named loco they remember. Which I think explains why, in our new strategic plan, we have nuanced our "4 or more large (class 4 or above) locos" requirement to "3 or more large (class 4 or above) locos and 1 super-large loco (WC/BB)" (as I recall; haven't got the exact wording to hand). We don't strictly need Sir Archie or Blackmoor Vale in steam, but the feeling is it is worth having a flagship. How much that is based on hard analysis of numbers and how much on a more amorphous feeling I don't know. And currently our most popular operational loco is blue, has six wheels, weighs about 28 tons and carries half a ton of coal and generally lasts the day on it - but most passengers love her.

    Tom
     
  5. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    GF-G You have to be joking about Flying Scotsman failing to draw the crowds.When Scotsman managed to visit a few heritage Railways, the public interest was amazing. Certainly, every train it pulled on normal operating days at the East Lancs was full. I am sure it was the same wherever it visited.
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I believe that, on the NYMR, a significant number of people turn away at the booking office if they discover that a diesel loco is at the head of their train. Joe Public generally expects steam and is disappointed if this is not the case. The NYMR is, however, marketed as a steam railway.
    As for size, for the most part, I don't think that it matters as long as it does the job. Even with steam locos.
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I wonder how long that would last if it was running day-in, day-out though? People want to see it once, so will time a visit to coincide if they know it is just coming for one weekend, but there are still only a limited number of tickets. Tornado has a similar effect wherever it goes, but I think those two locos have a public recognition far beyond any other current steam locomotive. If you advertise Britannia or Sir Keith Park or Lord Nelson or any other big namer at your railway, especially one it hasn't been to before, the enthusiasts will turn up, but I doubt you get too many "normal" people attracted just because that specific engine is running. And even amongst enthusiasts: for it to be worthwhile, having such an engine has to generate genuinely new ticket sales; no point having 1000 extra people turn up one weekend to see such and such an engine if you have suffered 200 fewer each weekend for the previous month or so because all the gricers have been saving up their one planned visit for the weekend the prestige visitor is running.

    Tom
     
  8. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Just checked the dates of the ELR visit by Scotsman. It was in 1993, twenty years ago. The visit was for more than one weekend and was well advertised. You are, of course, correct about the crowd pulling power of Scotsman and Tornado, compared with other big named locos. Perhaps someone from the Mid Hants could remark on whether the passenger figures are different if Cheltenham and Wadebridge or Lord Nelson are rostered rather than 45379 and 31806.
     
  9. geekfindergeneral

    geekfindergeneral Member

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    I never joke, I am noted for having no sense of humour whatsoever. If you are so confident of the national icon and its commercial pulling power, when or if it is working again (which is by no means a given just now) call Helen Ashby, give her the long number on the front of your credit card, and book it to a train of your choice. Do then come back and tell us how you got on, when your bankruptcy is discharged and you can pay for your internet connection again.
     
  10. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    GF-G Your statement about Scotsman was in the past tense, which I replied about. Why are you now prattling on about the future?
     
  11. geekfindergeneral

    geekfindergeneral Member

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    Tom
    I love her too. A long time ago I held a company party at Sheffield Park (called The Trainspotters Other Ball, really) and it was used as a bacon sarnie BBQ machine in the platform. At one point the fat in the shovel got too hot and exploded, to the general detriment of everyone's trousers.

    Interesting numbers, thank you. The carriage weight issue is new to me, and might usefully shape investment and policy in C & W even now. I hadn’t realised a Mark 1 was such a lard bucket. Some Mark 1s have moved on from being a cheap filler bought off BR to full blown major surgery cases, and the traditional mind set of overhauling one instead of dragging a hen house out of the headshunt might actually be, ahem, wrong. And if the financial landscape of main line running gets more brutal next year, another tranche of the damn things will be heading onto the heritage railways – or into store.

    The loco tractive effort to train weight calculations can probably be taken without further argument because Bluebell MPD is Southern House in exile and knows what it is talking about. But it is an operator’s answer, very proper and a probably bit hair-shirt, because good railway operators are like that. I would be interested in balancing it against a marketeer’s view, although perhaps you have – hence the super-large loco remaining in the mix?

    I’ll just chuck in one bit of gossip. A few years ago a past Chairman of Porterbrook Leasing (then part of Abbey National) put a serious suggestion to his Board that they might lease some steam engines, because the heritage sector was growing far quicker than it was capitalised for. He was of course sent to stand on the Naughty Step for his trouble, and later resigned. This was before the 82045 people had shown that replicas could be sensible workaday machines and not just a prancing £2.8 million Lipizanner.

    Aye


    GF-G

     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I know I have waffled on about carriage weights a lot on Nat Pres. But Mark 1s were a sensible choice for many railways (especially those getting off the ground or rapidly expanding in the 1980s and 1990s) when you could get them from BR in pretty good condition at pretty cheap prices - they were a way of building a reliable carriage fleet very quickly. But increasingly good quality Mark 1s are no longer available at near scrap prices - all you can buy at near scrap prices are near scrap coaches. If instead you have a carriage that is now the best part of 50 years old, has rotten corner pillars and leaking windows with 100mph-capable commonwealth bogies with a big unsprung mass hammering the track (unless very well maintained), suddenly you are faced with a very expensive overhaul. At that point, the cost difference between overhauling a 32 ton Maunsell / Bulleid and overhauling a 37 ton Mk 1 is not much at all, but the Maunsell has the advantage of being lighter (so needing a smaller engine to haul) and potentially more marketable as something that feels genuinely "heritage". Substitute Maunsell for Collett / Stanier / Gresley as you see fit.

    Edit: Though for full cost / benefit analysis, should probably mention that a C&W strategy based on lighter wooden coaches really needs a decent carriage shed to make it work - if you only have outdoor accommodation, a Mark 1 probably survives better, provided you do enough preventative maintenance to keep it watertight.

    Tom
     
  13. The Decapod

    The Decapod New Member

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    Could this be because they perceive that riding behind a diesel loco is too much like taking an ordinary train journey on the main network?
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Whilst I too much prefer the older wooden bodied vehicles I think that you are being a bit selective in your arguments against Mk 1 coaches. There aren't many Mk1's weighing in at 37 tons and there were plenty significantly lighter than this. There were also originally plenty of high capacity suburban Mk 1's seating 100 or more at 29 tons tare and these align much more with your pre-grouping stock. With the right choice of Mk 1's you could have got 300 seats for less than 100 tons tare. Open coaches and non-corridor coaches also always weigh less than corridor coaches.
    It is probably more correct to say that the Bluebell's mk 1's provide more space per passenger than the pre-grouping coaches and the penalty for this is a higher tare weight per passenger. It depends on your view of passenger comfort as to which is the best choice. Given the choice, I personally would prefer to travel in a 3 a-side corridor compartment to a 5 or 6 a-side non-corridor one, both of which give Joe Public a totally different experience to that which they can get on today's big railway.
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Yes, though there aren't many railways with suburban Mark 1s, since (so I believe) the maintenance of all those doors means they are expensive to keep running. So really, by "Mk 1" I mean the corridor ones that most railway use.

    The key point, I guess, is that Mark 1s are no longer a source of cheap coaches that can be run for a period and then sold off because there is a plentiful supply of replacements on the big railway. Those days have largely gone: if you want to run Mark 1s, you are going to have to budget to keep them maintained, and that is an expensive business. At which point, maintaining older coaches might start to look much more commercially attractive. Probably the best compromise are the 1930s corridor stock, since they have the space and comfort of a Mark 1 and ability to circulate to toilets, buffet etc (important on lines bigger than, say, 30 minutes one way), but are a bit lighter than a Mark 1. We have Maunsells that can offer both side-corridor compartments and open saloons, and I'm sure, depending on your location, there are other 1930s coaches of a similar variety of designs. Will also depend on what skills your C&W tend to find easiest to obtain, i.e. woodworking or metalwork!

    Tom
     
  16. Gwenllian2001

    Gwenllian2001 Member

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    Agreed but I did not mention the Welsh Highland which is not the Ffestiniog.
     
  17. geekfindergeneral

    geekfindergeneral Member

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    Not quite with you, I fear....if they are separate bodies, it is only in the same sense that conjoined Siamese Twins are separate. If one dies, it probably takes the other with it, whatever theoretical precautions and separations are in place.
     
  18. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    The key point, I guess, is that Mark 1s are no longer a source of cheap coaches that can be run for a period and then sold off because there is a plentiful supply of replacements on the big railway. Those days have largely gone: if you want to run Mark 1s, you are going to have to budget to keep them maintained, and that is an expensive business. At which point, maintaining older coaches might start to look much more commercially attractive. Probably the best compromise are the 1930s corridor stock, since they have the space and comfort of a Mark 1 and ability to circulate to toilets, buffet etc (important on lines bigger than, say, 30 minutes one way), but are a bit lighter than a Mark 1. We have Maunsells that can offer both side-corridor compartments and open saloons, and I'm sure, depending on your location, there are other 1930s coaches of a similar variety of designs. Will also depend on what skills your C&W tend to find easiest to obtain, i.e. woodworking or metalwork!

    I'd say the situation is a bit more complex than that! Most railways have a few or more pre-nationalisation coaches awaiting restoration, but very few are in as-withdrawn condition. Most are ex-departmental stock and so have had their interiors utchered, and it is the manufacture of replacements for all the missing compartment partitions, seats and brass fittings that is the time consuming and expensive part of their restoration compared to a Mk 1 where either the parts all all present on the coach or have already been salvaged from a scrapyard or other veghicles that are too far gone. If done properly, though, a wooden framed coach will probably last longer between major overhauls than a Mk 1, which tends to continue to rust in the areas adjacent to where patches have been welded in, particularly if anti-corrosion coatings have not been applied.
     
  19. b.oldford

    b.oldford Member

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    Unless they have "closed" stations one of the snags with wanting to run non-corridor coaches is also the difficulties of ticket checking.
     
  20. Grashopper

    Grashopper Member

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    I wonder if the 9F fits into the super-large class? I am a fan of Bluebell, I once finished a day of double-heading with 178 and still had enough coal left for a 4th run (and we were red-lining it all day) while the 178 crew had to coal up after the 2nd trip!

    As much as people gripe on about the "small loco" policy, I think the Loco Director has the locomotive mix (on paper) spot on. The only issue is trying to realize the policy in regard to available locos, staffing and funding. We'll get there eventually though, we always do.
     

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