4464 Bittern to do 90mph on ECML - 29 June & 27 July 2013

Do you think we can actually get back to discussing one of Gresley's finest............................................................. and leave Brunel/GWR for another thread?.................................................................................................

 

Great Eastern... hardly a commercial success, Its launch was a mess.
Wapping Tunnel...hardly a commercial success either..
7' gauge... didnt last either..

Brunel might be a famous Britain, but he wasn't without issues.

 

SS Great Britain, late delivery due to design and construction issues bankrupted its owners, eventually converted to sail because it was too damn slow and heavy.
Royal Albert Bridge, IKB merely adapted a design by Robert Stephenson.
Clifton Suspension bridge, cost overruns, not safe as designed, engineering changes made after IKBs death to make it so.
Maidenhead Bridge, - a masterpiece.

Ok so he was a good brickie. Jack of all trades master of one.

 

Considering the apparent ease that 5043 sat at 75 mph for long periods on "The Flyer" and how easily the speed can be attained and maintained with 46233, 60163 as well as 60019 (and a few others) surely there must be a feeling that this speed is achievable on more tours where the paths (and weather!) will allow it.
Do you think that this is something that is being actively considered for more tours? Or is Bittern's few runs at these higher speeds a one off as its a special anniversary?

 

My guess.. Once the horse is out of the stable it will roam.

Whilst it might not be for every loco owner, I see why some others may want to follow the same route, for at least a few years there's going to be a premium in the value proposition, and suspect at least one promoter will try to capitalise on that, with a loco that is upto it... I'd suggest 35027 and 6024 may be candidates once overhauled.

 

I'd love to add DofG to that list too but right now I just want to see her back on the main line.

 

Just a small intrusion from the world of physics: the power requirement to overcome wind resistance scales with the cube of the speed. In other words, going from 75 to 90mph doesn't sound much, but requires (90 * 90 * 90) / (75 *75 * 75) the power - that's about 73% more power just to overcome the drag, without even considering the rolling resistance (which basically scales linearly with speed). You are probably not far removed from needing double the power just to do 15mph more speed.

In other words, just because a loco can easily sit at 75mph doesn't mean that 90mph will be at all easy with a similar load on a similar road. At the very least, the fireman will earn his money...

Tom

 

Much as I would love to see a Castle or King at 90+ I think this is a strict one-off (or three-off) relaxation of the rules in recognition of a special anniversary

 

Interesting. Also, If I had been asked to guess which loco might be allowed to do more than 75mph, I would have thought only Tornado, Bittern doing it obviously puts paid to my thoughts on that

 

If the 50th Anniversary Castles at Speed trip goes ahead next year it could happen.

 

A4s are high speed machines par excellence so an obvious choice in my book. Would be nice to see other top link locos allowed to stretch their legs too.

 

Given that a lot of main line certified locos are currently crocked, have issues, or are fragile I really don't want to see those we have left thrashed to failure. LNER hold the speed record, its fitting that *one* of the class get this chance *this* year. 75 mph is plenty fast enough for a steam tour, gives the pax and the gricers the full monty.

 

Yes but how many times has the "strict one-off (or three-off) relaxation of the rules in recognition of a special anniversary" been trotted out over the last 3 decades for one reason or another.

I remember the last ever, special, one off,never to be repeated, absolute final, no way ever again, get it whilst you can, you must be kidding....over Shap, Beattock, steam on 3rd rail, under wires, railmotor, GB1,2,3,4,5,6 etc etc..

Genie. bottle and business opportunity comes to mind.

You don't sell £350k's worth of tickets within a few days for a handful rail tours that don't need massive amounts of organisation or costs, above and beyond any other tour, without someone in the finance and marketing sitting up and taking notice, especially when in our little industry, it's likely to be the same person and a very small group overall that needs to huddle together and explore the potential value of the nugget thats just been found in the coal mine.

Doing 90 with a professionally maintained class 8, that has the support regime and finance to match is infinitely easier, involves much less financial risk and is much more lucrative than say fitting ERTMS to a class 4 to run in rural wales.

Remember the back was broken by a locomotive owner providing the product, not a promoter looking for it.. and therein sets the standard.. a promoter will have their financial interests at stake and the £$$s offered to the owning group may not have been attractive enough to invest, however the loco owner now knows the value of their proposition, what price to set, the costs, the ROI and the size/willingness of the market.. better still they told two promoters, which are somewhat aligned to 1 TOC, restricted choice of power and now have a market differentiator over their competitors to explore.

My guess will be in a few years time people will be whinging on here of a railtour that advertised 90 with a loco than only ran at 89 for 20 or so miles down hill etc etc..

 

But the A4 ran on Brunel's Railway, and over his famous bridge at Maidenhead. So of course he's going to get dragged into the discussion!

 

Tom!

I can see you weren't around for the Southern Steam swansong.

I'd have put it the other way round. i.e the ease with which the Bulleids reached 90 mph and more very regularly showed time and time again how relatively "easy" the normal schedules were for locos and crews, (in normal circumstances). All of which could be kept without running over 75 mph. The ACE between Salisbury and Sidmouth Junction excepted, unless a crew really did want to work very hard indeed up the hills, which would have made no sense at all. But even the ACE schedule between Waterloo and Salisbury and return could have been be kept with a 75 mph maximum. Not today though with a slow start/finish into Waterloo and the "steam loco only" checks.

 

Yes indeed, totally agree. Also see my reply elsewhere today in the FS thread re the overloading. Folk must remember that (with the exception of Tornado), however well maintained they are, these are old machines and if nothing else we should respect their age. We've got mainline steam to enjoy, why try flog it to death?

 

There is not enough respect for age these days Victor, I totally agree with you.

Shall we start a campaign to get the youngsters here to call us "sir" in future?

LOL!

 

No, I'm a bit young for that!

My only point is you can't beat the physics, that says you need 75% more power to do 90mph than 75mph, all else being equal. If your lovely Bulleid is coasting along easily at, say, 1000hp to achieve 75mph given the constraints of terrain, gradients etc, it's not much of a stretch to imagine a Bulleid could fairly easily sustain 1750hp along the same stretch of track and achieve 90mph. But if the load was a bit higher, or the engine a bit less powerful, or the fireman not up to the job, that increase in power is a big ask. In other words, just because a loco can do 75mph doesn't necessarily mean it will be easy to reach 90%. (The interesting point is that the Gresley A4s regularly ran for extended periods at 100mph+; the logical deduction is that the same locos on an equivalent load must have been working very easily indeed at say 60mph).

Tom