Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Aside from dog stops play (see other thread), I saw another unusual moment at Horsted Keynes today. Stepney and the C pulled into platforms 4/5 with an up train, and got stuck there due to points failure (I assume at the north end of the platform). Guessing the points couldn't be hand cranked as they had to propel the train back south out of the station again and run north through platform 3 instead.

I'm assuming that's fairly unusual, I've never seen it before. But saw no fuss, no panicking, and only a minimal delay to the service. Can't help feeling that if this had happened on the main line there wouldn't have been the capacity in the S&T these days to get it sorted so quickly!

 

Tom: Thanks for the carriage info. As you say, the "greater seats per ton" of the vintage sets has to be offset by more frequent maintenance.

But.. it is going to get you through the important Summer season with small engines available, 9F excepted of course.

If overhauls go to plan it looks as though next year you should be in a better situation.

 

There is the lost income for no on train drink sales if you were to go all pre grouping unless there are open pre grouping coaches on the line that are of the lighter weight.
When I travelled there was a steady flow to the catering coach I don't know what this income is and how many people would be put of if this was not available.
Also there is no on train toilets with longer journey this might be considered. The SVR are I guess the only line with lots of modern none mk1 stock but some of the LMS coaches were built by british railways. I assume the weight saving for these coaches is not as great.

 

Another reason for keeping journeys and journey times short. Horsted Keynes is worth stopping off to visit the refreshment room alone. Pure "Brief Encounter"!

PH

 

The Maunsells are ideal in that respect - 32 tons per coach (five tons per coach saving over a Mark 1), but with through corridors, so access to toilets and, potentially, a buffet. Bulleids are also 32 tons per coach, but externally everyone assumes they are Mark 1s!

Currently we have three Maunsells in service, another one (I think) under overhaul and a fifth in reasonably good condition (that was the blue one at the 50th anniversary weekend, which ran until about ten years ago as I recall). So a five coach set within a few years is a distinct possibility, which could always be strengthend at peak times - just as the Southern Railway did - with loose coaches, e.g. an extra non-corridor at peak times. Very long term I think we have about 12 on the railway, but I don't think they are all, realistically, restoration targets. A long time hence, we might get to about eight, which would allow a six or seven coach set, and a restaurant car. We'd also have to think about whether a wheelchair conversion was possible.

Amongst the Bulleids, I think we have four in service and a fifth under overhaul - again a six coach set is a distinct possibility, that would have all the amenity of an equivalent rake of Mark 1s, but for about 30 tons less tare weight. Again, we'd have to think about a wheelchair access vehicle.

As for on-train buffets: I've never seen figures, but in any case I suspect it is very difficult to disentangle how much they are really worth. We can sell tea / coffee / muffins from SP, HK and EG and - assuming the planning issue is sorted out - from Kingscote as well, in other words from every station. So if you sell teas on the train, there must be an element of simply redistributing spend that would otherwise have taken place at a station. Which isn't a reason not to have buffet cars on trains, but working out whether they actually increase spend or not is probably quite difficult.

Tom

 

Don't underestimate the value of on train catering, Tom!

1. It has the same capacity as the train - you need a very big buffet with fast staff to serve more than about 50 at a short time!
2. Static catering has the time until the train goes to get through the people needing refreshments; a buffet car has most of the journey.
3. It provides a service people tend to expect - many modern TOCs would argue catering is a "loss leader" to encourage people to travel in the first place. Bigger capacity trains, better loadings and people in a better buying mood, as well as the potential to have volunteer labour, means heritage lines should do better!
4. You can never offer too much catering - look at the real "pros" of tourism - the theme parks - lots and lots of outlets.

Let the static catering units specialise - hot food, afternoon teas, ice creams or whatever - "buffet car is now open for the sale of hot and cold drinks, bottled beers, lagers and wines, crisps, pasties, snacks, sweets and other light refreshments"!
Steven

 

An interesting point. As I say, I don't know whether it adds to trade or not (except that it certainly doesn't add to trade on the non-corridors - maybe we should have urchins dressed in period costume scrambling to sell hot drinks and cake at every compartment during the frantic two minute stop at Horsted Keynes?)

I know I have partaken of on-train buffet on the NYMR, WSR and SVR, but rarely on the Bluebell. I wonder if length of journey has something to do with it? When all is said and done, we are about 40 minutes one way, under two hours round trip if you just stay on the train. Whereas I guess the SVR is somewhat over an hour one-way, and the NYMR and WSR must be getting on for an hour and a half. That's a lot more time to decide you suddenly want a drink midway through the journey and decide you have time to get one and drink it. Whereas on a shorter line, if you are gasping, you normally don't have too long to wait until the end of the line.

I must admit that on occasion I have wanted a drink on a down journey, but the ten minute stop at HK on the way down allows time - especially if it is quiet - for a quick dash to the HKCCE! (*)

HKCCE = (*) Horsted Keynes Centre of Catering Excellence -a.k.a. Delia's...

Tom

 

Due to the unique way my family plans its outings, we're normally sprinting from car to platform to train at the last minute… so the first thing we do when we get moving is head for the buffet. Most of the family likes 'the outing' more than 'the trains' and the buffet trip is part of the experience. It was a bit disappointing at the Bluebell that the offerings were a bit 'low rent'. I'd imagine that if a greater percentage start using the line to get to Sheffield Park, skipping the station caff for a National Trust lunch, the on-train buffet might become more critical.

Simon

 

It's a balance. LMS coaches are lighter than Mark 1's, but are shorter, a Third open is 56 seats vs a TSO's 64. The LMS buffet has a better capacity for serving than a Mark 1 RMB, which is quite small really and an externally door splitting up the bar and store room. GWR stock is practically all corridor stock which makes the use of a trolley hard which is why there generally isn't one with GWR stock. The trolley service on a service train on the Valley makes a very large difference to the buffet takings, even if it's annoying getting stuck behind it.
Tom, it must be your mark 1's or ours because only a few are 37 tons. A TSO with mark 1 bogies, which I think most have, are 32 tons. It's only the Buffets, corridor stock and brakes coaches which are really heavy (I think the CK's are 37 tons and suspect the buffets are about the same. The brakes vary, but the Set C saloon brake is quite light as it's a modified BG).

 

OK, does John Sandys read this thread and take illustrative photos, or do people on this thread follow John Sandys' movements and ask questions that are appropriate?

Anyway, photos (not mine, needless to say!) of the cutting sides showing how vegetation is starting to push through the matting:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bluebellrailway/9610104966/in/set-72157635263728210/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bluebellrailway/9610094316/in/set-72157635263728210/

Tom

 

I'm amused that Bean Counter advocates on-train catering with: 'buffet car is now open.....' as the NYMR generally relies on the dreaded trolley and its Dolly rather than a good ol' buffet car. The NYMR journey time Pickering-Grosmont is 65 minutes, extending to 1½ hours if going right through to Whitby. The first train in the morning really ought to be serving breakfast and the last train back ought to be serving dinner! Plenty of time for it; before the days of restaurant cars, Midland Railway trains use to stop for a refreshment break at Normanton and the refreshment rooms there could allegedly provide a three course meal for a trainload of passengers in 20 minutes! Even on the Bluebell you might not manage a sweet in a 10 minute break at HK but you ought to get through a main course with time to spare!

 

I thought Tom's Mk.1 weights were a bit on the high side; most came in around 31-34 tons and even the Commonwealth bogies of later stock didn't add that much extra. I'm sure that we've discussed this before, though.

Do people get counted in your loadings, Tom? 350 people can easily top 27 tons. I know that full trains on the NYMR are the equivalent of an extra coach over and above an ECS working.

 

The carriage weights in my spreadsheet come from those published on our website, but the loadings I calculate agree with what the guards tell us, so I assume they are right - I'd always assumed it was the commonwealth bogies. They don't include passengers, but I assume than when we are calculating loadings for particular locos, they are worked out on the assumption that the actual weight will be considerably heavier once passengers are on board.

Tom

 

I quote from own sales patter in the past!

The view is that the trolley, bringing refreshments to the passenger in their seat, provides a better service and takes more - but you must have the longer journey to make it work beyond 3 carriages (and it does work much better on Whitby than Grosmont trains).

There are some moves to try and do breakfasts - let's see if something can be worked out.

For shorter journeys, a buffet car may be wiser but really both on longer runs offering different ranges would be perfection!

Steven

 

Another point to bear in mind is the "value for money" aspect of your catering, be it at stations or on-train. In these financially constrained times visitors may well bring their own refreshments if they perceive a given heritage line's offerings to be expensive.
On the SVR I recall being asked for £1 for a small bottle of still water in the Bridgnorth station buffet, yet by contrast a coffee and a snack in Kidderminster Railway Museum is very reasonably priced, and I suspect that this undercuts the SVR's own buffet at Kidderminster, but in fairness havn't tested it recently.
As far as I recall the SVR trolley service was not excessively expensive, and the "wayside" refreshment kiosks at stations such as Arley, Highley ( on the platform) and Hampton Loade all appear reasonable, but have limited offerings. Dont know about the Engine House catering, havn't tried it since it was revamped. .

Must be a bit galling though at Kidderminster when the aroma of fish and chips wafts round the covered concourse, purchased across the road at Captain Cod...!! I assume at Whitby fish and chips is no contest, Bean- counter, your customers are a short walk away from some superb cuisine!

As I say though, visitors on any heritage line are sensitive to value for money these days.

46118

 

I've noticed that three of the NYMR's carriage sets run with a buffet as a more or less permanent part of the formation, but of the three - Gresley buffet No. 641, Mk.1 RMB No. 1823, and the TSO(B) which used to be NYMR No. 13 - only the Gresley is usually staffed, and trolleys are used on the other sets instead. I don't think I've ever seen the buffet counter in the TSO(B) in use.

 

So we can say the minimum weight you can have for the service train is basically 200 tonnes I have made a allowance for a mk1 catering vehicle in that. I guess this is still putting the train as being comfortable for a class for or maybe class 3 at a push taking into account loadings that can increase the weight of a train greatly.
I assume that going to seven coaches would make this a class 4 or above I don't think being on the edge of traction is a good idea always best to have somethink in hand especially now if you are expected to make mainline connections.
I did this years slip to a halt on the KESR which took a long time to organise a rescue loco and put back the timetable all day.

 

To some degree, it's quite likely. Certainly a sandwich and a can of pop is not much. One thing the Valley Suite has going for it is the fact it does larger meals.

Oh yes, but it's worse if they bring it on the train!

Agreed lots, people don't have to travel on heritage lines so the prices have to be, and should be, sensible.

 

On reflection it was perhaps unfair of me to single out different aspects of the catering on the SVR for comment. My point was, that be it the Bluebell, or any other Heritage line, there has to be a sense of value for money, rather than the "airport" or "motorway service area" mentality, that there is a captive market.

I'm sure this is not lost on our Heritage line managers.

 

Particularly when, as now, we connect to a town, so it is easy to go into the town for food rather than stay on the railway!

Interestingly, things are being promoted both ways round. For example, we have a "Monday Club" for senior citizens in East Grinstead, who can get a trip to SP and two course lunch at the Bessemer Arms for a reduced price if they travel on certain out and back services from EG - that's effectively not far removed from a full price meal with an almost free train trip thrown in: marginal cost and all that (we'd be running the service anyway, so might as well attract custom to the Bessemer Arms on a day that would otherwise be quiet). But equally, AFAIK, there are some cafes in East Grinstead that are offering discounts to holders of Bluebell tickets!

Tom