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Which loco do you think should be built in the future

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by charterplan, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    Also, briefly, near the end of steam in 1968 a 9F was noted running round minus the rear set of coupling rods, so making it a 2-8-2. Cannot lay my hands on the number.

    46118
     
  2. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    92167, allocated to Carnforth.
     
  3. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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  4. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Yes.

    PH
     
  5. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Quick, lets get a Facebook page set up and we'll be steaming in no time :)
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    There seem to be three fairly entrenched positions, and I am not sure argument will sway many people from one camp to another.

    In brief, these could be summarised as:

    1) We shouldn't be embarking on new builds until every last "original" item of rolling stock is restored
    2) New builds have a place to play in modern steam operation, but we should select designs that are practical for their intended use (which is often doing 25mph on a 5-10 mile branch line with moderate loads and running half the time backwards).
    3) Money talks, so the most likely projects to succeed are those with the greatest emotional appeal, regardless of practicality.

    I don't suppose anyone in any particular camp will be swayed by arguments one way or the other, but I'd just make a couple of observations:

    (*) There are numerous unrestored locomotives in the country, including around half a dozen or so class 7 / class 8 pacifics ostensibly suitable for mainline operation. Despite that fact, an entirely brand new class 8 has been built and successfully operated. So to those people in camp 1, the horse has well and truly bolted. Presumably the £3million cost of Tornado could have restored a Bulleid or two, but it didn't. Instead it built a new example of a long extinct class, while the Bulleids continued to decay.

    (*) As for practicality, of all the non-narrow gauge new builds that have actually gone to completion, only one can truly be said to be filling a defined practical niche. (If you want to run 400 ton tourist trains on the mainline at 75mph, Tornado is an entirely practical proposition). Of the others, they are all pretty well confined to running trains of about 50 passengers up and down a few hundred yards of track. Indeed, one of the successful new builds is so impractical that not only is it confined to pulling a couple of small carriages along a few hundred yards of track, but that track is confined to one site in the country: it can't even be loaned out to other railways (I'm talking about Firefly). Yet it is those, ostensibly impractical locos (Firefly, Rocket, Sans Pareil, Steam Elephant etc) that have had sufficient emotional pull to have got all the way to completion, on account of their ability to extract sufficient money from pockets and enthuse sufficient practical engineers to work on them.

    I'm all in favour of restoring what we have (especially rare carriages) and the practical person in me can see the attraction of 0-6-0 tender engines and 2-6-2 tanks as practical, reliable everyday traffic engines on preserved lines. But the evidence is that emotion seems to have had the best track record in actually progressing projects to completion...

    Tom
     
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  7. flaman

    flaman Well-Known Member

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    I should have made it clear that I'm talking about standard gauge locos, excluding replicas of ancient examples such as the "Steam Elephant", "Planet" and so forth.


    As to whether we're looking at the same projects, in some cases, yes, in others, no. There is such a proliferation of schemes that you would need to be extremely interested in the subject of "new-builds" to keep track of all of them and, frankly, I'm not!
    In the case of Beachy Head and the Saint, these are two of my "2 or 3" which will probably get there, but as to the others that you mention, I still have grave doubts about the viability of the most advanced of them and as to the rest, a rolling chassis, "in theory" or in fact, is a very long way short of an engine! Every new scheme that is announced and every elderly supporter who falls off the perch, makes the way that much longer.

    A bit harsh? Well, maybe, but there's no harm in a bit if realism!
     
  8. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    You could say 6880, 45551, 4709, gwr railmotor are keeping places like llangollen engineering going and training up new generation of skilled labor. Not only that the fact that these projects give people hope of one day seeing a long lost class. And boost moral among enthusiasts. The amount of people who cant wait to see the patriot steam when I talk to them on the sales stand. And im sure tornado has done wonders for the heritage scene. If it wasnt for projects like toornado, duke of g, blue king, bluebell tip etc etc people would loose interest and start to be discouraged by the "you cant do this brigade", well quite simply they can. Also people involved in the pat (875members so far) far far bigger than most loco groups and bigger than some heritage railways cant all be wrong.
     
  9. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    Ah, Jam again! Like I have said before, tomorrow is getting nearer and the jam is getting thicker. An interesting viewpoint Flaman and one that I respect but disagree with entirely. So much so that I am supporting no fewer than 3 of these new builds, one LMS and 2 BR class 3 standards. I also support an old, ex-Barry loco. It all comes down to the fact that you cannot tell people in the UK how to spend their money. If you could, we would look very much like North Korea.
     
  10. dublo6231

    dublo6231 Member

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    For me its quite simple - leave Green Arrow exactly where she is - cracks and all - unlikely to ever run again and build a new V2.
     
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  11. dublo6231

    dublo6231 Member

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    I was just thinking I could say the same for FS but thats a very large can of worms better left unopened- especially as they will finish it...eventually...possibly...maybe
     
  12. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I'm sure that's true, but how much further short of an engine is it than the remaining Barry wrecks? How many of them really consist of much more than a 'rolling' (well, might roll if pushed hard enough) chassis and the shell of a boiler?

    A Bulldog ought to be quite a useful loco, and a Std 2 boiler ought not to be impossible to obtain, and there's already a rolling chassis to copy everything else from [grin]
     
  13. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    The class 8 2-8-2 (and at that time that would be an LMS class 8, not a BR class 8) design had 5ft 3inch drivers.
    The purpose of that design was to fulfil the same kind of duty that the Gresley V2 and the GWR 47XX. ie fitted freight, both of these had larger driving wheels
    but both also had quite a high axle load hence 2-8-2 or as it turned out 2-10-0.
    Riddles was of course correct in that this kind of duty wouldn't merit a class of its own for some time, and the purpose of the standards was to be operationally better than older classes they would replace. In the case of the 9F that meant 2-8-0's and 0-8-0s's that were in some cases 40+ years old.
    As it turns out the ability of the 9F to run at speed suggests it, and its 2-8-2 pre design are worthy of MT stripes ( or lining out).
    Both Cox and Bond in later anecdotes agreed that Riddles was right in the case of the 9F, whereas Riddles post script was that a large 2-8-2 would have been the ideal for speeded up freight and passenger work ( just the bestest loco ever!) With a different set of contemporary demands there may have been a standard 2-8-0 8f and a standard 7mt (2-8-2) instead of the Brittania and 9f ...

    So to me this of greater interest than saving another Bulleid, Hall, Black 5 but im not taking anybody elses money so I can think and say what I like...
     
  14. TonyMay

    TonyMay Member

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    I don't think the (Firefly, Rocket, Sans Pareil, Steam Elephant etc) type is especially relevant here. Rocket/Sans Pareil weigh about 4 tons, Steam Elephant about 7.5 tons, I can't find Firefly's weight but it's not that much more. The point being that a small group can build such replicas.

    Another point is to distinguish between "new builds" which are mostly rebuilds using existing spare parts, and engines that are nearly all new, especially with regard to the key component (frame, boiler).

    That puts the 2MT 84030 as a rebuild, along with Beachy Head and the various GWR kitbashing jobbies, as partial rebuilds. My interpretation is that partial rebuilds are not "new builds" but more closely related to conventional restoration.
     
  15. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Jimc said:
    Is suitaility for the work more important than attracting volunteer labour and attracting visitors?​
    Yes.

    PH


    No matter how suitable a loco is deemed to be, if insufficient funds and labour are forthcoming, then it will be a dead duck.
     
  16. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I do have to chuckle at the naysayers on this thread. For as long as I can remember, there has always been plenty of people telling preservationists that "it will never work," "you'll never raise the money," "why on earth restore one of those," "it's too big," it's too small," "there's enough of those already," "why would anyone want to do that" etc. Thankfully preservationists have ignored said advice and gone on to achieve what many thought impossible and created the heritage scene we have today. Some schemes have withered and died but the success stories far, far outnumber the failures. So carry on and tell us that our locos are impractical, our schemes are pie in the sky, we won't listen and we will continue to confound others with our achievements.
     
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  17. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    How about a compromise.. a Std 9F 2-8-2 rebuild.. number is 92168 as the 2nd member of it's sub class, and use 92245 as the starting point thus re-using a barry wreck :).
    Then save on the tender and build a bunker, so its good for preserved line use.
    seriously-i'm kidding, Facebook not neccessary
     
  18. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I don't think some people have got the right idea with this thread, but never mind.

    I'd like to see some more bulleids in unrebuilt condition SR livery. I know they are about, but we can always have more :D

    also it woukd be great to see so e older coaching stock in general use, rather than the standard mk 1s on most railways (therefore covered accomodation for them would be needed, more lotto ticke ts methinks...
     
  19. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    See below

    PH
     
  20. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    "Achievements"? In the narrow gauge world certainly. Also in the very specialist world of prototypes such as "Firefly" or "Planet". But in mainstream standard gauge stuff, capable of doing a job of work; precisely two, namely "Tornado" and the railmotor power bogie. Otherwise, apart from a lot of hard work and financial sacrifice, it is definitely a case of "jam tomorrow" and tomorrow is a long time coming. Far too long. Not surprising when one of the more sensible projects has to be carried out in the open air.

    It's just no use going around saying in response to those who demur that "new builds are wonderful". Some are, some aren't.

    PH
     
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