If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Flying Scotsman

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,067
    Likes Received:
    20,775
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That just about sums up where we are - a place that we have been for too long in my view. The only thing that we can hopefully say about the public ownership of anything is that, in spite of the attendant bureaucracy and time delays, the open scrutiny means that there's a better than even chance that the work will be done properly....this time. Speaking as someone for whom the return of FS has lived down to the low expectations I had of it happening, it looks as though we can at least see the tunnel now even though we can't yet see the light at the end of it.
     
  2. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,239
    Likes Received:
    5,250
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    Interesting question asto where the work will be undertaken given the ELR's latest Press release

    NEW DAWN FOR EAST LANCS LOCOMOTIVE WORKS
    Ambitious new plans by the East Lancashire Railway to develop its locomotive overhaul and maintenance capability looks set to breathe a new lease of life into the Grade 2 listed former locomotive works at the railway’s Baron Street site.
    The 170 year old building, cited as being one of, if not the oldest standard gauge loco works in the world still used for its original purpose, is the centrepiece of an exciting plan by the railway to become self-sufficient in all aspects of heritage railway locomotive restoration and refurbishment by the summer of 2015. The building was a key element in the aborted NRM+ project which was at the core of a major railway heritage display and skills development centre for the North West. The scheme ultimately failed due to constraints on Heritage Lottery Funding.
    A key element to the ELR’s plans will be the re-siting of the Riley & Son Engineering Ltd facility which currently occupies half of the works building. The prominent loco engineering company has been resident on the site under a licence agreement with the railway since 1993 with both organisations having worked in partnership in the intervening years.
    Riley & Son chief Ian Riley commented on the proposal We identified the need for more modern and more suitable premises some time ago and this initiative is going to give us the impetus we need to take our business on to the next level. We have outgrown the space and facilities we have available to us at Baron Street and if we are to keep pace with the changing needs of our customers we need to move up a gear. The ELR has always been important to us but we do understand the need for the railway to become less reliant on the industry’s supply network and become more self-reliant. We’re hopeful that we may still yet be able to retain a physical connection with the ELR”
    ELR Chairman, Peter Duncan stated “This development is of immense strategic significance to the future of the ELR and its sustainability as a heritage steam and diesel railway. Having the ability to manage our locomotive fleet, in every aspect of day-to-day operation and maintenance, is going to be a key element to meeting the objectives we set ourselves back in 2010 for doubling the railway’s visitor numbers within just ten years. The increased ability to manage our own affairs, in this respect, cannot be understated. Whilst we recognise that there will be some upheaval to Riley & Son’s business activity we are committed to ensuring that the process is handled sensitively and in consultation and cooperation with Ian and his team. I am confident that we will be able to demonstrate, once the transition is complete, that we have dealt with the relocation in a considerate and professional manner.”
    It is the intention that the new East Lancashire Railway’s facility will open up opportunities for employment, training and skill transfer in all aspects associated with railway locomotive engineering and in both the diesel and steam traction aspect. The ELR also foresees opportunities arising for undertaking contract works for other heritage railways and locomotive owners.
    ENDS
    Note to Editors
    The East Lancashire Railway in the North West’s premier heritage railway and operates the 12 mile restored former main line route between Heywood in Greater Manchester and Rawtenstall in the Rossendale valley using restored steam and diesel traction. The predominantly volunteer run railway attracts in the order of 140,000 visitors a year and figures as one of the largest tourist attractions in the region.
     
  3. Pesmo

    Pesmo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    124
    Having read the press release twice and trying to read between the lines, but it still not seeming any clearer, can someone say what is really going on ?
     
  4. 3855

    3855 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    443
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    inside a boiler
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Love the spelling error in the last paragraph!
     
  5. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,416
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    Suggest the ELR news should have a thread of its own but reads as if the Riley business will be leaving ELR by mutual consent.
    ELR then seek to offset their own maintenance costs by taking on loco contract work in the vacated site.
    Brave, ambitious and deserving of success.
    Suggestions as to where a suitable rail connected site might be for the relocated business? Or partnering with an existing complementary business?
    In relation to the point Fred alludes. Was the uncertainty taken into account by NRM when awarding the contract both in terms of ability to carry out the work and then support the loco for the first 2 years?
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,433
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  7. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,849
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Researcher/writer and composer of classical music
    Location:
    Between LBSCR 221 and LBSCR 227
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Whoever owns it seems to end up with problems.

    Alan Pegler owned it. He went bust
    Tony Marchington owned it. He went bust
    Now the nation owns it and under Gordon Brown, the nation went bust.
     
  8. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,440
    Likes Received:
    388
    Just wait until George Osbourne sells her to China, in exchange for a nuclear power station :)

    Now i'm going to state the obvious, Why didnt the contract get given to Riley&Sons to restore the engine in the first place? it would have cost less, been done properly first time round, and would have been finished and earning back its keep by now.
    Its clear from early on that York didnt have the skill base to undertake such a complex overhaul with the resorces and skills it had to hand at the time.
     
    Bean-counter likes this.
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,433
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Because that's not how public sector procurement law works. If the NRM had done that, they may well now be fighting a complex legal challenge from some other company - who had thereby been excluded from bidding - challenging the decision.

    Tom
     
  10. osprey

    osprey Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2007
    Messages:
    9,357
    Likes Received:
    2,313
    Occupation:
    semi-retired, currently doing R&D for my patents
    Location:
    Halifax
    I wonder if it has dawned on anybody that a Yorkshire built loco is being sent to Lancashire to be fixed....woe is the day..........
     
  11. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,610
    Likes Received:
    1,438
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Perhaps the Engineering facility at NRM will be let go (costsaving) and the premises Leased to Riley & co ? ....
    The train of Part finished locos from Bury to 'where - ever' will make an interesting sight
     
  12. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    2,065
    Likes Received:
    1,240
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Stratford-upon-Avon or in a brake KD to BH
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Could just for once a press release actually be a straight forward reflection of the facts. I am also usually cynical but sometimes there is no hidden agenda.
     
  13. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299



    To understand why Alan Pegler went bust you have to understand something of the motives that drove the American misadventure. The desire to keep the engine running and seeing no long term future for achieving this in the UK was one factor. However the cake that was baked in order to assess the financial viability of the venture proved to be lacking a number of ingredients - adequate Government and commercial support being two. The end result was inevitable rather sadly. So, do we blame the engine or the people who created the plan? The locomotive evidently performed well. It upheld its part of the deal, so to speak. The plan proved to be the problem.

    Tony Marchington of Oxford Molecular and Flying Scotsman fame. The company delivered the profits that allowed Mr. Marchington to indulge his passion, and the company got into difficulties. So the flow of finance to maintain the indugence dried up. He should have given up the locomotive to another custodian somewhat sooner. RK was in the position of having to keep the engine going with insufficient funding. Perhaps he should have prepared the engine for storage instead, all greased up, dehumidifier attached to the boiler etc.

    Gordon Brown, we should not forget his odious partner either or the other non thinking acolytes. Some might say that we got the people that we deserved. If folk are unable to manage the custodianship and care of a preserved locomotive what chance have they got with a country? Different group of folk, very similar blight.

    The bright side for a moment. If Ian Riley is wanting and needing better pemises and this work helps in achieving that then every preserved engine could benefit in the longer term. (Unlike the vast majority of the people of this country who see no improving benefit regardless of who happens to be in power.)
     
    S.A.C. Martin and class8mikado like this.
  14. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Maybe we should sell it to the chinese..
    if they go bust we'll all be rich.
     
  15. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Will we ever learn from History.. the L&Y built it's works in Lancashire, not once, not twice, but thrice... there must be a reason for that.
    :)

    The North West has proud history with Crewe, Horwich, Newton Heath, Gorton, Bury and privately with exporting to the world Kerr's Preston, Vulcan Foundry, Vickers...
    Yorkshire had.. Doncaster (Eastern CMEs include..Wordsell exLNW, Ivatt exLNW, Gresley exLNW, Thompson, ex L&Y) oh and a bunch of ikea tank tengine builders....

    Repeat after me...
    Yorkshire. Just dont make engines like they owt-ta

    :D
     
    osprey likes this.
  16. goldfish

    goldfish Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    14,901
    Likes Received:
    12,241
    I had a go at explaining this yesterday, but lost a lengthy response to the ether; might have another go later.

    In short… extreme caution would have had to be taken with regard to Riley's bid, because of their previous involvement in, and consequent insider knowledge of, Scotsman's overhaul (not to mention the problems encountered) to avoid the threat of legal challenge.

    Simon
     
  17. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,736
    Likes Received:
    1,107
    Location:
    Oxford
    Sorry, you're ranting like a Wilcock, which is most unbecoming. Would you say that all of 4472's private owners have looked after her well? There are plenty of examples of mismanagement, cock-ups and rank incompetance amongst all different sorts of private ownership. The NRM is as good place for FS as anywhere and rather better than some. The worst than can be said about their work so far is that they failed to find all the "hidden nasties" early on. They didn't cause any of them, and as the full scale of the problems have become apparent, they've (perhaps belatedly) realised it's too big a job to tackle in house and called in outside help. "Unspeakably bad"? I think not.
     
    Shoddy127, paulhitch, jnc and 5 others like this.
  18. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    When Flying Scotsman's private owners had the money it was spent. You cannot run any locomotive for close on fifty years without spending a substantial, a very substantial sum of money. When the owner's funds stard to get into difficulty by extension the locmotive suffers an impact. Rather than move on owners have on occasion hung on. At least with a private owner they could and did give up their custodianship. With the locomotive in the hands of a National Museum, should the maintaining of the locomotive as a live exhibit become or be judged as no longer affordable, and museum funding is so lavish and secure, what then? Would they give the locomotive up, for a suitable sum, to someone who was prepared to run it?

    Regarding your view that none of the problems found on the locomotive occured during the period of museum ownership. Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure? I was sure until a few months ago. As was put to me, the people who could talk are no longer at the NRM.

    That aside I still view the ownership period to date as bad. To make so many mistakes, to make so many erroneous assumptions about the engine, to have as management so little idea of the level of in house expertise and skills. To spend so much money for so little return..... none of this would have happened in John Bellwood's day. The museum had the wrong people in a few too many places.

    At least the locomotive is going to be finished and I do hope that Ian doesn't find anything further because their is still a chance that losses might be cut on this rather than the saga have a happy ending.
     
    THE MELTER likes this.
  19. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes Received:
    6,303
    I think that it is pretty clear that the problems pre-date the current ownership. Some may have been exacerbated in the early days of NRM ownership, but not much more. It is pretty clear from published and unpublished information where the "blame" lies.
     
  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,433
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The worst that can be said about the NRM's custodianship of FS is that they were slow to realise how bad the condition was, and slow to realise they didn't have the skills in-house to restore her. That is a lot less of a serious matter in my book than being the people who, by their ill-advised modifications, got her into that poor condition in the first place.

    You also seem to be bothered that, if money becomes tight, the NRM won't pass her on for someone else to operate. But so what? Running isn't the be all and end all of locomotive ownership. The advantage of a custodian like the NRM is that they can take the long view. If money gets tight for a while, they can take her indoors for a period, with the hope of running in the future if financial conditions improve. In the interim she would at least be safe and secure and dry. Compare that with a previous private regime who, when they ran out of money, effectively were forced to leave her sat for several years on a salt-laden quayside for want of the money to bring her home. Under private ownership, there is nothing to prevent such a situation arising again - or, worse, an owner becoming financially so challenged that she ends up as razor blades.

    Given the significance of the loco, and the past record of ownership, I would say that the NRM represent the best secure long-term future for her.

    Tom
     
    jnc, 61624, williamfj2 and 3 others like this.

Share This Page