Welshpool & Llanfair locos

That wouldn't happen to be a member of "Collection W or Y" or someting similar?

 

She's gone back to Whipsnade Zoo, but she is privately owned and my understanding is that she was always considered a little bit big for the line there. To be honest, though, the W&L seem to coping well with just three steam engines, at least in the short term - I have been living quite close to the line this summer and AFAIK it was only during the recent gala that they had to resort to using the diesel for a few turns!

 

Watching that video, I'm fairly impressed by the ability of the crew to strip the motion down on the road and get things moving again. Any word on what caused the failure? That would determine how big a job it was to fix, of course.

I've never seen the Resita (although I've seen the other one in the back of the carriage shed at Llanfair C.) but I do rather like the look of the engine, I hope they manage to get it sorted out and reliable in due course. I can't see the other one getting restored unless and until that happens.

 

Don't forget this is one beast of a line to operate and successful motive power has to be both tough and capable. Sadly the Resita seems to be of the "as soon as you fix one thing, something else comes along" sort.

It should be said that on both times "Chevallier" visited the line, separated by many years, she ran hot bearings. Also there is YouTube footage of trains climbing to Coppice Lane which suggest that she was a less accomplished hill climber than the supremely lively "85", or the Beyers for that matter, although the crew may have been aware of bearings overheating.

There is some new YouTube footage of the recent Gala which give some idea of what is involved in operating this line.

PH

 

Chevallier's axleboxes are not her originals which were stolen from Whipsnade in the 1980s along with other non-ferrous items. Her present set were manufactured by Steamtown Carnforth and were specified for her current undemanding role at the zoo - they made no allowance for installing conventional oil pads.

W&L crews at Gala stopped every station to check the bearings so they would have been taking care. She was also the first loco to run on the W&L without a Lempor exhaust for nearly two decades so she would sound considerably noiser than other W&L locos.

Gareth

 

I would love to see a Zillertalbahn U class at the W and L to match the coaches (I'm sure I read once they tried to buy one in the late 1960s?) but as someone else has already said, that's not very likely to happen. I would have thought the obvious thing to do (apart from another go at getting the Resita going again) is to overhaul a tried and tested W and L engine like Sir Drefaldwyn or get the lovely number 85 back early from Shildon.

 

Looks like you're in luck!

http://www.wllr.org.uk/news.htm#No. 699.01 will run again!

 

Finally sense prevails in the old ticket office! The Resita was an unfortunate lapse from the good sense and probity that we expect from the W&L. Whilst 699 is not what you would call "refined" and on rough track you don't so much fire it as wait for the firehole door to bounce past and fling coal toward it in the hope of getting some in!! However, unlike the aforementioned Romanian thing, 699 never let the railway down (even when Mr P modified the smokebox so it had an ash hole in the bottom, but didn't make the door heavy enough!). Who knows when they weigh in the Romanian machine they might get £250 toward the rebuild of 699!

One thing struck me as odd about the news page though.....I thought that I'd helped build a carriage shed complete with a painting bay down at Tanllan. I must be dreaming though because carriages are being painted in the loco works again.

 

Great news about 699. Given the amount of experience the WLLR has accrued since the engine was withdrawn we can expect a much Improved machine to emerge. After, that who knows. Someone might tackle the big Bagnall once and for all. Yes, you could make a good machine out of it.

 

When it is refurbished will 699 have the modern exhaust modifications that the W&L have become well known for ?

 

It already has Lempor.

As for Monarch, it possesses other fundamental problems which are much more difficult to address than the exhaust arrangements, not least the incompatibility of a long, thin, marine fireboxed boiler with the violent changes of gradient encountered.

PH

 

Take the power bogies from Monarch and the boiler from the Resita and build a Garratt.

 

I know it has problems, including a poor exhaust system, but nothing that is insurmountable. After all, why do something easy and predictable when you can take on a challenge.

 

The machine is quite misbegotten and the thought, labour and expense in trying (I emphasise "trying") to make something of it would be better employed in looking after the remainder of the fleet. The draughting arrangements are the least of the things to sort out. In matters of design, if not workmanship and materials, it is worse than the Resita.

Railway preservation is more than tinkering with aberrant locomotives. There are things like rolling stock and civil engineering, or shops, catering and lavatories for that matter, which need their share of available energies.

PH

 

As the exhaust system is acknowleged to be the heart of a locomotive what a strange response. If we as preservationists were to take the easy option then a great deal of the achievements we enjoy would not have come to fruition. Yes, Monarch was not one of Bagnall's better products. Conserving the fabric and putting it on undercover display is the cost effective option. However a small, skilled team given sufficient resources could make something of it. Think along the lines of the K1, but with more headaches.

 

My recollection of Monarch's problems when running on the W&L in the 60's was more to do with the restricted water space in its 'marine' type boiler. On the W&L the rapid changes of gradient caused 'the tide to go out' rather rapidly and I seem to remember the lower 1/3 of the gauge glass was covered up as the 'bottom nut' was at or below the firebox crown. I don't see how "a small skilled team" can solve that problem unless they're going to regrade Y Golfa! Ray.

 

You are obviously unaware of all the headaches that have happened with K1.

Monarch is probably tarred with the poor steaming brush for the same reasons a lot of locos were in those early days. In that it was knackered and there were not the time or resources to put it right. There of tales of major blast pipe misalignment among other things.

Having said that anything with a long boiler is going to be less than ideal for W&L no matter what firebox it has. At least it is looked after now though.

 

Whether or not it was a strange response I will leave to others to judge. However the efficiency of the exhaust system is relatively easy to sort. This railway has been a trendsetter in such matters.What can't be done easily is the following:-

(a) Fire this pattern firebox without either shooting coal over the brick wall and blocking the combustion chamber or allowing holes to develop unseen. This can be done with smaller pattern boilers of this type (I have experience) but the longer the grate the harder it gets. Also there is minimal space for ash just where it is most needed.

(b) Getting the water level right on a line where the summit is approached in the low one in thirties in either direction. The long boiler and the limited water capacity in the boilerhelp not at all.

(c) Coping with the inbuilt problem of all single expansion articulated machines with only one regulator when working hard. Can be ameliorated with steam sanding but another complication with additional flexible steam connections.

(d) Fitting modern flexible steampipes.

In all this locomotive is a sort of "gricer's dream". In other words a nightmare.

PH

 

According to the current issue of Narrow Gauge World, Monarch has a sister engine currently under restoration at the Cripple Creek and Victor Railroad in Colorado. Thus, those who want to see a Bagnall Meyer run again will hopefully have the opportunity to do so!

However, there is no operational need for the W&L (or, AFAIK, any other 2'6" line in Britain) to steam Monarch. Furthermore, given her historic importance as the last NG steam loco built for British industry, I think there is a strong case to be made for conserving her in her present condition, rather than destroy any more of her (already rather battered) original fabric in order to return her to steam.

 

It looks like you have started "tinkering with this aberrant locomotive" already Paul with your brief overview of MONARCH and it's inbuilt foibles, with suggestions to iron-out some of the issues.

I do agree that MONARCH is something of a gricer's dream, but what a challenge!! You know what gricers are like when presented with an impossible challenge.....

Looking at the W & L and it's loco fleet: it seems that Beyer Peacock knew a thing or two when they built the original locos for the line, with short, fat boilers; this makes for excellent steaming characteristics and obviates the summit cresting dramas that you have mentioned. A Short, fat boiler is a design feature of most of the Garratts that BP built - have a look at an NGG16 over on the Welsh Highland as an example.

Coming back to MONARCH, the engine was brought back to Welshpool after it's holiday by the sea at Boston Lodge because, I presume, that some future use could be found for it. The W & L is a line that isn't exactly blessed with a surfeit of space for supernumerary locomotives clogging up the place, so, are there plans to revive MONARCH?

I have heard anecdotal stories of MONARCH's working career on the W & L from back in the seventies, specifically the water disappearing down the gauge glass when going over the top, coal being over-enthusiastically thrown over the firewall at the end of the firebox and blocking the tubes, slow steam raising ( a problem in South Africa for MONARCH's sisters), poor steaming - those draughting issues mentioned before maybe?? - however, on the positive side, the loco apparently "rode like a coach" and achieved speeds that we should not discuss here.

So, what to do with this "misbegotten machine"? Well, let's look at what there is; below the footplate there is quite a piece of exotic machinery, four cylinders, eight wheels and fine riding bogies - a good start thus far, with plenty of potential power. I'll not discuss the complications, as you put it, of steam sanders, flexible steam pipes, etc. as this is the 21st century and these are just mere details on a working loco today. Oh, and by the way, I've witnessed at first hand one of the aforementioned Beyers slipping to a standstill on Golfa Bank; it happens to any loco, of any configuration.

Now, the boiler, that seems to be the weak link in the whole concept, so where to begin? There is no way to insert a conventional boiler within the designed loco layout so let's assume we stick with the existing one. You have acknowledged yourself Paul, that the W & L have form when it comes to loco draughting, so lets assume that a Lempor front end will be installed, so, plenty of super-heated steam for those four cylinders. Let's get to the other end of the boiler, what is to be done with it? First thing is to probably go over to oil or gas firing. A steam loco with no coal?!?! Sacrilege, I agree, but it gets around one of the biggest problems with this type of boiler for adequate continuous steam production on a railway like the W & L. A solution could be to arrange the fire-plate vertically on the backhead so that the flame front impinges onto the whole of the circular firebox wall, thus giving maximum heat transfer and voila, as a bonus, no ash problems.

As for the water level as the loco goes over a summit, this is a boiler management problem that has been with us since the dawn of the steam era, is MONARCH tarred because other locos on the line are, er, better, in this respect?. As an oil fired loco, the fireman would be able to give most of his attention to the water levels at critical moments instead of trying to do several things at once, as on a coal fired loco.

The upshot of the foregoing is that here is a loco that has actually worked on the W & L before, is of an exotic configuration and is, well, a steam locomotive here and now, is complete and ready for a decision. Is it worth the effort? I really don't know, all I can say is that, personally I would dearly love to see it restored. I agree with you Paul about priorities, but the good news is that the shop, cafeteria and toilets on the W & L are first class!!

I'm sure that anyone can pick holes in a case for any loco, and hells bells, people do and they will, but this is quite a special machine and like all of the other contenders for our attention deserves a considered and sympathetic hearing. Will it happen? I suppose it all depends upon the acceptance of that challenge...

Perhaps Gareth Houthonga has some insights as to the future of MONARCH.

Cheers

Alan