P2 Locomotive Company and related matters

It will be William as it's always the first born son who becomes Prince of Wales.

 

Have to agree with some of the comments here with regards the name. It is indeed a different choice, not least when there are other Scottish ones that would really continue the trend of the P2s from history. The name to me seems to break the link between what the group is trying to achieve, which is to rebuild an engine linked to the past that is no longer arround. They did this with Tornado, the name being linked to a jet, rather than Racehorse, character, company or director/engineer. To me, thats a shame as it breaks the link to the past clean in two, however, with such a break you can argue that it gives it a chance to stand on its own right.

The A1 Trust has always been good with the PR. This was an excellent way to grab headlines and bring the new locomotives construction to a wider audience, but looking back thats all it was. Naming the engine 'Prince of Wales' does add gravitas, and gives it power to match the engines expected performance. Yet, naming the engine haver Prince Charles 65th Birthday does seem to be something of a cop out. Yes, the man himself has done a look of great work for charities, young people and the environment, and its worthy of naming after him as the present Prince of Wales, but to link it to an event which will be a distant memory when its completed will to me at least seem odd, as no doubt other milestones will have happened which might make the choice look odd in comparrison.

I want the engine to live on long after Im gone, and im entering my third decade on this earth. The name for such an accomplishment I would like to have been for a genuine reason, and not the spin that the trust seems to have given. That said, everything about the project looks really impressive, with great details and plans ahead for the engine. I have no doubt it will be successful, and with the expereince the trust has gained from Tornado, I actually think that Prince of Wales will exclipse its forerunner when it arrives.

 

I've been observing this thread for sometime now, and personally I think people are getting a little hung over the choice of name, Prince of Wales. True, it may not bear a name of scottish origin and therefore may not seem appropriate for the class of engine, but quite frankly, after thinking over this matter for quite sometime, I simply cannot think of any name of scottish connection that would as striking, memorable and overall as widely recognised and marketable as the name the trust has ultimately chosen. As I have said before, I personally believe Lord of the Isles would have been a good choice as well, but in terms of which one the widest range of people will recognise more, Prince of Wales just has the winning edge in attracting the wider audience.

I should also like to point out that (as has been mentioned already on this thread) when this locomotive is built, the majority of it's runs on the national network will be the mid to southern parts of England, with such routes as the Settle–Carlisle Line (considering the P2's famed hill storming capabilities) being no doubt potentially especially popular for it. There's no doubt in my mind that it will travel up to and Scotland on occasions, certainly it just has to be taken at some point on the P2 class's old stamping ground, the Edinburgh–Aberdeen Line. But overall this new P2 will be serving the most popular and successful steam railtours and excursions, like any other mainline certified steam engine would these days, for which the majority are run in the mid to southern parts of the country. So with this in mind, the argument for a name of Scottish origin dosen't really hold much ground, especially since the majority of people, even many enthusiastsI suspect, aren't even aware of the original class's existence, let alone of the eccentric Scottish names they carried. I say word eccentric, as sympathetically as possible, because put simply another issue with a Scottish name for the engine is that in England, Scottish names tend to cause people to scratch their head in confusion as they can be hard to fully understand sometimes without reading them wrong or indeed recognising what/who the locomtive was actually named after. You can call it pure ignorance on the British people's part, but unfortunately I suspect it's a similar case with many other countries out there.

I find it intriguing how you state that it's a shame that Tornado and now Prince of Wales are locomotives with links to the past (with their original designed classmates that are no longer around), yet have seemingly broken this link to the past as a result of the names they we're given. While I can understand your view, I believe you are missed out a key factor here, which is that they do not represent solely the past, and never were intended to. You see, while the trust have striven to build Tornado as close to the original A1 class design as possible and will strive to do the same with the P2, they have always made it clear that the Tornado was never going to be an exact replica, because with the progress of time, advancements in the technology and engineering of this field (Steam Locomotive Design) have improved matters dramatically. The trust has embraced many of these advancements in Tornado's design (roller bearings, fully welded boiler, etc.) and the results have spoken for themselves I'd say. Here we have a design from the past, yet with many improvements of the modern age, Tornado was built for the future, so that future generations will still fully enjoy the sight, sound and smell of steam that we here in the present day take for granted, because simply put most original steam locomotives are getting older and older, and no easier to keep them in good working order for the future. So you see, I've always believed that Tornado, as well as Prince of Wales, represent not just the past, but perhaps most importantly the present and hopeful future of steam locomotives in britain. The past is to be respected, but the trust is making it's own history, one that look to the past, present and future, creating a grand machine to inspire the masses. Fellow enthusiast or general member of the public, the A1 Trust looks to both with equal appreciation and respect, something that really makes them quite unique in Railway Preservation.

Again, it should be made perfectly clear that the A1 Trust didn't just pick this name on a whim, I have no doubt that the trust had carefully selected this name after much consideration and research, on the grounds of both appropriateness and marketability, the name as you've said yourself does add grandeur and gravitas, but as ever the marketabililty side of this subject cannot be understated. If your building a large express passenger at the cost of 5 million and aiming to get it done as soon as financially possible, then your going to need to draw in as much interest as possible. The large, elegance and overall uniqueness of the P2 is a big help to the cause, but the name will always be one of the biggest factors.

When building a new A1, the trust needed a good striking name for the engine to stand out, not just to the enthusiasts but most importantly the general public as a whole. Naming it after a racehorse, character, company or director/engineer would have been more appropriate perhaps, but I don't believe it would have captured the same level of interest and fame as it did and has with the name Tornado, its a striking name and holds national significance being named after the RAF's Panavia Tornado, a multirole strike aircraft that has defended this country's shore for a many number of years successfully.

After the success of Tornado, it was always going to be difficult coming up with a name for their follow up project that would attract as much attention as Tornado's, they could have gone for another RAF aircraft but I don't think it would have captured people's attention as much. What they needed was a high profile name, yet one that would be appropriate enough to suit an engine of this grand and large design, and overall I'd say they chose well.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the fact they announced the name to coincide with Prince Charles's 65th anniversary, for as I said, I'm sure the trust spent many months on this matter of the name, they simply announced it since it seemed appropriate at the time and, as I can clearly see on this forum, gets people talking, good or bad.

Part of me wonders if that most people's problem with the name is that it is (according to many) supposedly named after Prince Charles, as I've learned quite well that as royals go, Charles is not the most popular of the lot... Though quite frankly I find that issue irrelevant, as it should be pointed out that the engine isn't strictly named after him, if it was, it would have his name included. Prince of Wales is a title and not one that someone keeps indefinately, certainly I'm sure most people would agree that the title itself is a good name on it's own merits. Of course if Prince Charles's inclusion in this matter is an issue, I can't imagine it will take an age before he ascends to the throne and Prince William take the title, then I'm sure they'll be nowhere near as much fuss as there is now...

Hmmm... I wonder how well William can handle the regulator...?

 

I agree with a lot youve said.

Personally, I think its possible to maintain the link with the past but respect your differing views in that regard. Really, a name is a name and the name right now will have more use for marketing and getting headlines to get the cash in to start the project than it will once the engine is completed. The idea is that Prince of Wales does become name established in its own right, but I think names such as "Highland Chieftan", "Lord of the Isles", "Knight of Thistle" would have been equally as good. If your after something regal, then "Queen Elizabeth II" would have been it. Alternatively, the 1930s design and pedigree could be reflected with the name "Spitfire".

Names to the past are important. There already has been group of P2s made and this engine will bring new experiences and an engine much thought about since their rebuild. You can bet, that it skews the Gresley vs Thompson debate even if everyone points to Prince of Wales running well in its new built form defeating the issues the class had previously. Comparrison and emulation is what this is about as much as looking forward having admired the past. If your wanting to make a new build then the engine, livery and number all matter, as well as choosing the name. Its the final touches that give it character and identification and with the naming similarities broken the comparrison there is a little different, but only when it comes to a name. Steam was already on borrowed time when the first A1s were made, and the technology itself is old fashioned. The idea of new builds is to rebuild missing engines so that we enjoy the sights sounds and smells of it all while using some rose tinted hindsight on it all. The designs, ideas and character of steam engines all revolves around recreating that by gone time. Even with a new build your rebuilding an old concept and the final detail comes with that character the engine has. Now, Prince of Wales carries a title thats a break with the past, like Tornado did when named, as Red Rum would have been just as apt and in ways following whats gone on before...

The steam engine is a romantic legacy of a world now gone, and tours now are as much about luxuary and shopping as they are the steam train ride. No doubt this will take the P2 to new areas like the Devon Banks, Shap, and north wales but in turn this will be in a market that is now seasonal and established. Privisiation has seen the growth of the heritage side of open access and the P2s novelty will bring it to the market, relationships are where its future lies once that is done, but this is years away.

However, "Prince of Wales" it is. The trust did state that it was named after Prince Charles, in which case the name doesnt fit as its his title at present, but I think that is more an attempt at grabbing headlines on Charlies birthday and a good way to get attention and launch the project to the public. No doubt, having Tornado behind them will give them a great deal of experience in new build and mean contacts and support is already built up on. The engine will be a magnificant sight, and the group chosen is best place to deliver on it. I hope the P2 side is more open and honest about arrangements than matters have been with Tornado, but they have every skill and every medium to produce a fine and quality engine. Time to let them get on...

 

I am not opposed to the name chosen for the P2, it's a dignified name for a Locomotive. I did wonder if names like William Wallace or Robert the Bruce may be chosen, before the announcement.
If the P2 Locomotive Company had wanted to be controversial, they could have used a pattern for 4472's nameplate and shortened the first word by one letter, thus commemorating a current politician / comedian of current notoriety...

Richard.

 

Who can you mean? The list is long!

 

Are senior figures in the A1 Trust looking for a CBE?

Will all this hob-nobbing with Royalty distance them from their working-class roots and us plebs?

 

"Are senior figures in the A1 Trust looking for a CBE?

Will all this hob-nobbing with Royalty distance them from their working-class roots and us plebs? "

Only one and it's a knighthood!

 

I concur too with much you have said, a very nicely laid out, in-depth reply it is to boot too. Certainly, the more I think about it, the more I begin to favor "Lord of the Isles", no denying it is a catchy name.

I like the idea of the name "Spitfire" too (can't believe I never considered that myself with it being one of my favouritie aircrafts), though wouldn't that technically go against your statement of desiring a name that link to the past, in other words a Scottish name? And though the fighter was built in the 1930s and therefore gives a link to the past, the title "Prince of Wales" itself has been around since the 12th century. It may have been named after Prince Charles, but the title itself nevertheless stands on it's own, and will continue to do so long after Charles and his respective descendant have carried and then passed on the title.

There are a few parts of your reply though that intrigue me, firstly:

Now again, I have to commend you for your well thought out and legthy reply, so extensive it was in fact that I must confess I'm not quite sure what your clear line view is on this matter. So I ask you, do you dislike the name? If so, then is it specifically because of it's name breaking the tradition of it's class, or is it because it appears to be purely a cash in and not thought out well enough as a result?

I realise I'm probably looking as though I'm trying to drag this out, but in all honesty I'm just plain curious. Plus I'll concede that I do like debates...

And finally, secondly:

Now when you talk about them being more open and honest about arrangements, that is the Trust, to what exactly are you referring to? I've alway got the impression that they were the most open of people and didn't let internal politics disturb their work (unlike certain owners of another famous pacific...), so is there a reason to think otherwise?

Again, just curious...

 

Locomotive names, some personal thoughts.
March 1956---Wood Green Station---60504 heads north---a glimpse of a nameplate---not sure what I read.
That evening with my Ian Allen part 4 all was revealed 60504 Mons Meg. Mons a town in Belgium, Meg short for Margaret, who was she? The other A2/2 names caught my eye Cock o' the North, Wolf of Badenoch, etc. So began a lifetime of interest, from the ER powerfully flying birds, racehorses, antelopes, country estates, and football teams. Euston brought 46210 Queen Maud and 45538 Giggleswick. The bufferstops at Paddington produced an absolutely immaculate 7005 Sir Edward Elgar and waiting to head West 5017 The Gloucestershire Regiment 28th, 61st, why were these names amongst the castles?
I think I learnt as much from loco names as I did at school: The Monarchy, Stately homes, Geography, The Empire, Mythology, Regiments Warships, and WWI heroes to name a few. Some names were more difficult than others to understand, Llywelyn, Joyous Gard, Tyrwhitt, and Kettledrummle, but all were eventually solved, 61036 Ralph Assheton was also confusing being in the middle of the Antelopes! The LNWR had some beauties too Enchantress, Vindictive, and Scirocco.
The point of this, to me a London boy the names of the North British Atlantics and themes from Sir Water Scott are Magnificent . I would love the new P2 to carry on this tradition, but if the name Prince of Wales attracts more monies and sponsorship wonderful. The sooner I can see it the better.
One further thought objectors to the name are quite at liberty to pay for the casting of two new plates and have them fitted for a time, Madge Wildfire would be nice.

 

Locomotive names were always interesting as a boy , enjoyed learning where all of the places named after West Country pacifics were ,or finding out where the peaks named after D1 to D10 were.

 

I fail to see why Prince of Wales should be so unacceptable; the nomenclature will be constant even although the personage may vary - Prince Charles at the moment which will be passed to Prince William once Charles becomes King then later passed to Prince George once William becomes King.

IMHO the P2 name is a worthy choice and I commend the group for choosing it; hopefully it will grow on others too !

 

I doubt the choice of name is a big deal other than on places like this. It's like a low-grade version of paint froth as far as support is concerned. You either want to see a P2 or you don't.

 

Mons Meg was the nickname a rather Large Cannon and was the pride of the Scotish Arsenal at the time....

 

Mons Meg IS the name of a medieval bombard located in Edinburgh Castle

 

While everybody both North and South of the border know, instantly, where the names of e.g No. 60068 'Sir Visto', No. 60098 'Spion Kop', or even present day locomotives running such as No. 60103 'Flying Scotsman', No. 61306 'Mayflower', actually take their meaning from? Indeed, look at the LMS, how many of today's enthusiasts could instantly tell you where the names 'Galatea' and 'Leander' come from?

I suspect the group you are concentrating on, 'Many enthusiasts, I suspect, aren't even aware of the original class' existence', will be in the same group who will only know of these engine's names, but not of their reasoning for that name and the history behind it. But nowadays, a quick look up on Wikipedia can surely solve that? So much information is available on the web, that I'm pretty sure if they didn't know before, all interested in this new-build will be fully understanding of what a P2 was, will be, and the many arguements had on NatPres in regards to the Thompson rebuilds....

Prince of Wales is a great name to go with, agreed, but I still prefer a name which would set it apart from Charles. My view is, if you overheard somebody saying in the street 'Oh, the Prince of Wales will be passing through town in a week', many will mistake it for being the Monarch himself. 'Tornado', abliet named after an aircraft, has overtaken the winged machine's popularity to become the more forefront thought when the word 'Tornado' is brought up ( and we don't have many of the weather phenomenom in this country to take any notice ), but I suspect 'Prince Of Wales' is a title which will always stick with the Monarch first, and the engine may luckilly make it to be just an after-thought.

Which brings me to another thought. How do the aviation community feel about No. 60163 'Tornado' having stole the limelight from the aircraft in the general community? Has it really 'stolen' the name?

 

And we haven't even had the high-grade paint froth argument yet!

(But in principle I agree with you - you either want to see a P2, in which case the name is by-the-by, or you don't. For me - I want to see one).

Tom

 

The aviation community can be split into two groups - those who are interested in trains as well and those who aren't. I've yet to hear anyone of the first group complain and I doubt those in the second group even care - and this assumes they even know of 60163's existence. It's no different to the naming of 34065, 34066 and various Castles. The name celebrates the eponymous aircraft and nothing has been stolen. Anyway, the RAF Tornado was predated in the naming stakes by the the USAF B-45 and in between the two came 70022 and I suspect all were predated by loco/locos of the same name somewhere along the line. Nobody's stolen anything.

 

Not to mention the Hawker Tornado.

 

yep, its one of the traditional GWR loco names. It was used on broad gauge and narrow gauge singles.