46235 City of Birmingham

I'm still not entirely sure why some people want to see CoB steamed, what would destroying it's originality provide that the Ducchesses of Hamilton and Sutherland can't provide? I'd pay good money to see the loco left exactly as it is, once it is tampered with and its originality lost that can never be replaced.

 

There's no rust on it at all, go and look at it closely for the icon it really is. Far from useless.

 

Yes I'm sure it has lots of historical significance, but it hardly represents what the original rocket looked like. Also you do realise that Stonehenge was "overhauled" in the modern era as many of the stones had fallen down.

In the era of playstation and xbox if you want to get the younger generation interested you need something that can be touched, seen working, and "played" with.

Lets take Rocket as an example, which do you think is the biggest public draw? The original in the science museum, or the replica which you can ride behind? I was at the NNR years ago and there were large numbers of people waiting for a ride behind the replica. When I was at the science museum there was maybe me and one other person looking at it.

City of Birmingham looks very pretty sat on its plinth, but it'd look even better pulling 8-12 coaches roaring up a gradient somewhere.

 

No, it's owned by Brum and is a valued part of Birmingham Museums and Art Galleries' collections. However, in museum terms it is viewed by us as the type specimen.

 

No.1 had a cosmetic makeover a year or two ago when it went on loan to Toddington. I wouldn't be surprised if one day it quietly disappeared into TYS and reappeared in steam without any fuss.

 

It represents Rocket at the end of its working life rather well, despite the new wheelset and chimney - go and look at Bailey & Glitheroe's "Engineering and History of Rocket" for the full story. It is an icon and icons belong in museums where one expects to see them. Time and time again people forget what museums exist for - it is to preserve, conserve and interpret artefacts - nowhere does operation come into it. Yes, people love the working replica, but without the allegedly rusty engine in South Ken, there would be no replica. The "rusty and useless" item is the REAL THING. With the right interpretation, folks love to engage with reality and history - and colleagues at the Science Museum are on with that in new plans for Making the Modern World gallery.

As for City of Birmingham - my views have been trotted out here on many occasions...

 

ER, isn't that the point of of replica ?, so you can see what the original looked and ran like without tinkering with the original ?, even as modified the original must have some pretty significant bits on it that are rare as hens teeth.

Think of them of as a as built version and as withdrawn version.

 

Far from useless? How many wagons can it haul now?

 

So are you suggesting that the Science Museum scraps its Rocket? I am very much in the "if it can be made to work, do it" camp but there are some items where to return them to working order would destroy so much original material and old workmanship that they are best left untouched. That's where replicas come in.

 

That is the view of contemporary curators but it is a view resulting from academic training founded on the preservation of artefacts rather different in purpose and form. I look forward to a change if I might live so long.

 

I may be misunderstanding you but are you suggesting returning the original Rocket to working order? If so, hasn't that gap been filled already by the working replica?

 

Actually no. Rocket is more of a special case than CoB. That Rocket looks nothing like the original, and is probably best stuffed and mounted. You would have to completely replace everything in order to make it run again. That is where the replica comes in of course, but to build a replica CoB would be ridiculous given the relative ease with which the original could be made to work again.

The same goes for Mallard, yes there are 3 other working A4's but I never had the chance to ride behind it before it was stuffed and mounted. Notably those arguing it should never steam again are old enough to have had that opportunity.

CoB on the other hand still looks like the original and could be made to run with relatively little changes to its look or components. It supposedly represents an engine out-shopped at Crewe works. Which I have to say is rather disappointing if Crewe out-shopped engines that couldn't be used.

Museums have their place for items where we cannot have a working original. But with CoB a working original is merely an overhaul away.

I don't see anyone suggesting we stuff and mount any preserved railway lines to show their originality.

 

You won't find a change amongst classical curators, but operation IS a widely accepted good practice for interpreting the purpose of an object, and thus a proportion of the collection does operate. Where an object is too old/fragile/precious to operate, then replication comes in - and the 1979 Rocket is just that.

 

46235 is too big to run on the main line railway - needs cab and tender cutting down - resulting in the loss of original material.

Basic question - what would running 46235 teach/show us that we haven't seen when 46233 or 46229 have run in BR green?

 

In what way would a ride behind Mallard be different to a ride behind one of the other three operational A4's, and ditto CoB vs DoS? The only ones who would really stand to gain would be the linesiders, especially in the case of DoH, if she is returned to steam in bath tub style (now that's something I WOULD like to see).

 

It would show you what CoB looked like running along a railway, as opposed to Duchess of Hamilton, or Duchess of Sutherland.

I would suggest you could simply stick the nameplates on one of the other two but I don't think I could stand the flaming if the renaming of Bittern to Dominion of New Zealand was anything to go by.

 

This.

This thread is proving my theory which I've expressed a few times down the years that some railway enthusiasts are much like children. You can tell a child that they can play with every toy in the toybox, except one. Which one do they immediately want to play with more than any other?

It happens every time. City of Birmingham. Lode Star. Mallard. Two of those in particular are daft given that other examples not only exist but have been semi-permanently in steam and on the main line in recent years.

 

Mallard is the one with the world steam record, the others aren't.

Maybe its just me, I was brought up on Thomas The Tank Engine. Remember how happy Edward was when his driver came to steam him up and take him out for a run. Stuffed and mounted engines should have tears painted on the smokebox door.

 

So overhauling CoB would achieve very little then really. Just swap plates with DoS - I'm sure if you put up enough cash that could be arranged for you.

 

Right. I get your drift now. With CoB and Mallard I can see both sides of the argument. Both classes are represented by other working examples but I don't necessarily think that's a reason not to steam them - always assuming money can be found of course. I think Mallard running again would be a huge draw on both the main line and heritage lines.