Motive Power

the difference between steam and diesel preservation is that the steam movement was born on the back of a huge phenomenon of Train Spotting , nearly every small boy in the 50s/60s was involved to some extent, whereas only a tiny percentage of small boys were and are Diesel Spotters. The work available, either rostered or as a standby is very small and there is no vast pool of diesel enthusiasts to call on to create their own railways (with a couple of exceptions).

I think the air brake thing is a red herring isn't it? It is not impossible to put together an AB rake of coaches surely

 

It's a fair point, but I think it's needs to be a well thought about decision whether to scrap or retain, as when the day comes that all vac loco's are either scrapped or spoken for, you don't want to find yourself in the position of needing an additional one.

That said, that day is still some way in the future as I suppose as a last resort, you could retro fit vac brakes when the like of DRS finally decide their 37's have had their day.

There are air brake loco's and stock preserved, but the issue is they have to be run totally separate from the steam operation, a class 58 cant come to the rescue of a broken Black 5 and LMS rake, and you need a somewhere to store and maintain that additional 6-8 air brake coach rake, running air brake stuff is not impossible as the likes of GCRN and ELR have shown, but it's an additional cost and operational headache having a non standard train on a "vac" railway.

 

a class 58 can indeed rescue VB stock but cannot use it in service.

I take your point about future requirements, but just look at the list of "preserved" diesels! I would hazard a guess that at least 50% are inoperable and as time goes by increasingly so. They are not the simple machine a steam engine is, where you can abandon it for 20 years and then expect to rebuild it. Over forty class 37s I believe ...40! with almost no work for them

 

I just counted them, actually got to 48....

 

These are valid points, however, it depends what sort of diesel you are talking about. Large main-line diesels are highly complex machines requiring high levels of expertise in their maintenance, they require proper covered accommodation if they are to remain reliable in the long term (damp is the greatest enemy of diesel-electrics) and they are not best suited to hauling 6-coach trains at 25 m.p.h., which leads to problems with coking-up of cylinder-heads and turbo-chargers etc. Spare parts will increasingly be a problem once the supply of cheap spares from scrapped units dries-up, since we are talking about new manufacture of highly specialised bits of old (i.e 1950/60s) technology.
Whilst the cost of fuel and regular heavy maintenance is lower than for a steam loco of equivalent size, the above issues greatly reduce these advantages.

The situation is different in relation to small diesels. They are relatively low-tech, being, in effect, very heavy automotive power and transmission units built onto steam loco frames and running-gear. This means that they can be well maintained by anyone with lorry/ plant skills and, being designed for relatively low speed, variable load operation, are ideal for the smaller heritage lines. They also maximise the advantages of fuel and maintenance economy- I recently did a detailed costing on the relative running costs of a Class 03/04 diesel and an industrial steam loco of equivalent size- it worked out 25 to 1 in favour of the diesel!

Not surprisingly, we run the vast majority of our services with a diesel. Customer resistance? Very little and what there is comes, almost exclusively, from the over 70s.
20 years ago the level of resistance was high, but time and the Grim Reaper march on! Who, in 1993, would have believed that the Bluebell would ever run regular diesel services?!!

Back to the question: Yes, there is a very good future for diesel preservation, indeed, preserved diesels will become essential to the survival of operating heritage railways, but there will, inevitably, be some thinning-out of those locos that were bought without consideration of their restorability or their buyer's capability.

 

with respect you cannot run many preserved lines with a diesel shunter and you yourself are doubtful of a diesel-electrics capability of surviving outside storage. There is no work for the vast majority of locos, even shunters. Over 300 ex-Main Line preserved locos where every preserved lines needs only 2 or 3 perhaps. Resources will always go to the Steam Loco primarily as they draw the crowds in a way that a diesel never will (and no I'm not over 70 and missed steam on BR completely)

 

It was easy (compared to trying to buy a steam loco from BR in the 1960's) to buy a diesel out of service in runnable or nearly runnable condition. Thus a lot were purchased. I get the impression that many of those involved in said purchases were youngish, but subsequently got involved in careers, marriage, family etc and no longer had the time/enthusiasm they had at the time of purchase. Thus the locos languish.

 

Perhaps those who object simply boycott your line?

What are your annual passenger figures?

 

Au contraire, there are a large number of heritage lines which can be operated very effectively by diesel shunters- those, mainly longer, lines which figure most prominently on this forum should not necessarily be taken as typical of the UK heritage scene. Of course I am not suggesting that diesel will ever displace steam, but times change and heritage railways will have to embrace change in order to survive, as the Bluebell, for instance, has! A few years ago I visited a heritage railway in the US. It was operated exclusively (and very successfully- it was packed) by diesels, although they had some steamers under overhaul/repair. One of the volunteers, aged approx. 90, was bemoaning the fact that so few younger people were interested in steam. I asked him why this was, as we had quite a few relatively young people interested in steam in the UK. He replied "You were lucky in England, you had steam on the main lines for 10 years longer than we did."
I'm not saying that exactly the same situation will arise here, but it might be prudent to ensure that we have enough serviceable diesels available in case.
Lastly, at the risk of causing apoplexy to Reading General and a few others, I base my opinions on the relative decline in interest in steam v. diesel on 25 years personal experience of heritage railway operation and have no doubt that interest in steam is declining, both among the public and volunteers. But perhaps we're unique!

Flaman (aged 69 1/2)

 

Very healthy, thanks. And we run at a profit!

 

Apoplexy? My comments have been to the effect that there are too many diesels preserved and many will not survive.
I still contend that most preserved railways cannot be operated by shunters, both from the practical pint of view (speed/hauling capacity) and the fact that the essential bums on seats will not occur for shunters. (Shunters are not included in that 300 figure by the way!)
As for steam being in decline, well it isn't yet imo although there may be some retrenchment once the old boys have all been reallocated to the Steam Shed in the Sky
. I'd like to see your source for that comment , as if you can't back it up it rather casts doubt on your other opinions.

 

The Middleton Railway runs both steam and diesel (on separate days) on a regular basis at weekends and this is no problem. These are advertised as such and we rarely get adverse comment when a diesel is in use. It's noticeable that income on a steam day is about 2-3 times as much as on a diesel day, though. Having said that, the costs involved in running a diesel are much less than steam so it all generally works out on the right side of the bottom line.

 

A special case, the Middleton Railway running steam is a world apart from even a small Main Line preserved railway running steam. I have never visited but may well one day as it is right up my street I reckon, an urban railway faithful to it's origins. Diesel on this line wouldn't bother me . but a lot of enthusiasts would go elsewhere I feel

 

As I said before, mainly from personal experience. 20 years ago we could guarantee that passenger numbers when running steam would exceed those when running diesel by a wide margin, probably 8-10 times. Over the last 3/4 years this margin has declined to the point where "diesel" days attract the same, sometimes greater, numbers of passengers. Given the difference in the running costs between steam and diesel, not to mention the difficulty in getting steam crews, as older drivers/firemen retire or drop off the perch, whilst younger recruits prefer the diesel, we have reduced steam operation in favour of diesel. Incidentally, this has had a positive effect on the bottom line, which is not surprising, considering that a small steam loco uses 1 ton of coal per day @ £200 p/t whereas an 03 gets by on 20l. of gas oil @ 70p p/l. And that's without the cost of 10-yearly boiler overhauls etc!

 

So why don't you give a number?

 

Because I have no intention of blowing my cover and anyway, it's none of your business! If you want to get your teeth into something, have a discussion about the last line in post 35. Or perhaps that might expose some awkward truths? (Ed- sorry, line and a bit!)

 

whereas I am sure there are (as I said earlier) a couple of exceptions, running diesels does not attract the punters as much as steam and the cost barely comes into the equation on that basis. A very small affair could run shunters but generally, you cannot run a line with them.

 

You make a lot of claims - so why are you unwilling to back them up with figures? Perhaps it's because the numbers are so derisory.

Where is this line that you claim attracts the general public to travel behind diesels? It can't be much if it can be run with an o3 shunter.

 

Well, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I'm more impressed by the opinion of people who visit us, the Middleton, the Mid-Norfolk and an increasing number of others. Anyway, time will tell, indeed it already is! To borrow a point from another recent thread, how many mainly steam lines can you name that are profitable, even sufficiently to maintain themselves in the long term?