Any Questions?

John
Sorry to thwart your suggestion, but we usually avoid at all costs putting our main line registered loco's on low loaders. We consider that it does nothing for the springs and running gear. Others disagree, but you never know until it goes wrong so we do not do it. The angle of the ramps necessary to load to road transport are un-natural and not something within the design parameters for steam loco's (known as vertical curvature). This was one of the contributory factors for 7752 not going to LT as they required road delivery to their depot.

Regards
Bob

 

A pleasure to read a brief, lucid and honest account of some of the issues involved.

Surely it would be advantageous if representatives of other operators and tour organisers engaged in a similar manner from time to time.

Thank you and best wishes to the team at VT.

 

For whatever reason it's a pity that the Panniers don't get out more. I've been thwarted in my attempts to get a trip on the rare occasions they do get to stretch their legs so my logic is the more runs they do, the greater my chance of success. Here's hoping I get lucky in 2014.

 

Thanks for your response Bob. Only working from your home shed, with your own crews and no low-loaders make perfect sense to me. I do think the Norwich idea has some merit though - within range for a Castle (or Hall if in gauge) and a great place to visit too?

 

Thanks for the response, but thought it may be worth one more throw of the dice with regard to Panniers in the south.. If you think it's an absolute non-starter in any form and never will make any money I will bow to your experience, but wanted to put some more flesh behind it before you say so, I appreciate it may take some convincing as it does push the envelope beyond traditional boundaries.. but Panniers are an engine that push boundaries.

Whilst understanding the costs required to put on a "long gig with panniers in the south" one has to consider that LUL raised approx £250k on 2 sunday evenings with not more than 40 miles of steam using a similar sized tank engine. I cannot think of any other 4 mile railtour that can pull £150 a ticket, sold directly to the general public (not so much the enthusiast market), lasting no more than an hour or two… Only London, and only Londoners would pay that, supported by the "must do enthusiast".

London with Panniers could command a considerable premium "on top of a London Premium" if marketed as a suitable one off and advertised locally,
London has a myriad of branch lines, offering many "one time" opportunities, if imagination was put into say 2 or 3 itinieries (over different routes) in a single day of approx 20 miles each, there could be an option to cover many routes and have several mini-tours in the same day, as this would all be in the London Travel card area, 1 way trips are viable for passengers.

If done over a holiday weekend, and including say a Morning, Noon, late noon and evening 20 mile approx itiniery covering 1 each of say 12 different possible radial routes from the Marylebone / Southall / Kew triangular area, at £50 a head standard class.. accompanied by say a railtour to / from Brum before and Afterwards.. the ROI may look a little different.
However I cannot ignore that the effort required to plan / run this would be considerable, and also if there is the desire to do it versus something else.

8 Coaches * 64 standard passengers = 512 a train, (excl 1st class / buffet / support / front coach etc) * £50 a head * 4 trips a day = £102,400 x 3 days = £307k from 6,144 seats.
If £50 a head makes the "enthusiast" gulp (ignoring the demand created by the sell out £150 LUL trips or even the sell out £25 a head 6 mile Uxbridge x 6 trips per day = £150 a std class seat day revenue), you could always offer that £200 for a "day ticket" in the front coach 1st class option.. which isn't that far from where a standard tour is today… before dining options.

and 12 "1 time only" routes with a Pannier, some of which are pretty "steam unfamiliar options" and aren't over capacity or without suitable stopping locations ), which could be done in a day are:

1 day:
Southall - Marylebone via Greenford - Hanwell - Southall
Southall- Brentford Branch and back (potentially x2)
Southall- Paddington Mainline return via the "semi-closed" Ruislip line to Greenford

1 Day:
Southall - Willesden Yard - Kensington - Vauxhall (plat 1) or Eurostar Terminal at Waterloo.
Clapham /Vauxhall/Eurostar - Hounslow Loop - Clapham.
Clapham - Streatham - Norwood Junction -(Spare platform by main road) (via Norwood / Selhurst, and return option via Gypsy Hill save running round)
Clapham - Kew - reverse - Acton - Willesdon - Southall.

1 Day:
Marylebone - Amersham & return
Marylebone - Ruislip & return
Marylebone - West Ealing & return
Marylebone - Southall - Maidenhead- Marlow
Marlow - Maidenhead - Southall

Marlow / Maidenhead has been done once before with 1466 from Didcot, 30 odd years ago, Didcot are considering the Railmotor on the Brentford branch, if rumours are to be believed, I doubt that would cost less than £50 a head !

 

As a follow-on from the above could I add that some enthusiasts will pay OVER the odds for a guaranteed one-of tour that meets certain requirements and VT has already proved that - with the Panniers ! When L94 / 7752 had its loaded test run to Stratford 48 hours notice was given IIRC that passengers would be carried between Hall Green and Stratford and enough people turned up to travel that must have generated quite an income.

I know from experience as my son, based in Preston, persuaded Dad to drive him to Crewe whereon both of us bought a West Midlands Ranger ticket to reach Birmingham and travel on the test run. The relevant fact is that both of us made the effort, paid the price and enjoyed the experience.

Another example of this is the current NRM A4 programme with the 6 A4s to celebrate Mallard 75 where "high" prices are being charged - and willingly paid - for an experience that is unlikely to be repeated. Admittedly the initial event was the privately-organised A4 night photography at Shildon with 3 consecutively numbered A4s, but the organiser required a certain number of photographers to pay £60:00 for a 4-hour night photography session and required answers within 48 hours. I understand the quota was filled within 24 hours - and one participant came from Holland ! ; I only had to travel from Southport which was a shorter 3-hour journey. In the same context the final Shildon session of the 6 locomotives is costing £90:00 - and I like many others willingly paid up 6 months ago to confirm our place on this not-to-be repeated event.

The point to make is that for a special event - and what could be more special than Paired Panniers - a Premium Price could be charged at a level sufficient to cover the extra cost. I know that VT looks to provide a cost-effective tour programme and seeks to keep its prices "reasonable" but there are exceptions and I venture to suggest that the Panniers are just that. Irrespective of your classic named locos at Tyseley the Panniers are the true "gems" of your collection and surely the chance to let them shine on home territory is too good to miss !

As others have mooted a programme of Paired Panniers around London will command a Premium Price and I sincerely ask that VT give this serious consideration. Based at Southall and using the overnight running option that I suggested at the beginning of this thread I feel sure that such a tour programme, complex as it may be, would prove both immensely popular and financially successful.

 

Fred, I got the message from Bob's post that the possible income to be generated from 'off-piste' tours was not their primary concern or motivation. Personally I'm more than happy that VT continue to concentrate on their local market, as there's no shortage of tours operating out of the 'smoke', but we're not so well catered for here in the Midlands and VT provide a good slice of those that do.

 

Same here. It would divert their time from running the engineering business and also quoting Bob : -

"The team who run the company is not huge, and nor is the team of volunteers who make it happen week after week after week, and having said this it should be quite categorically stated that what we currently do is all that our staff can manage or indeed what we are prepared to do with our very precious spare time".

 

John

With regarding travelling on branches I have quoted an earlier post from Andy " The Man" Taylor of West Coast : -

 

I also understood that point BUT VT is a commercial organisation that has to consider future operations and consider various options to provide a commercial tour programme. In that context I feel it fair to offer some suggestions that may offer an income beyond its "normal" activities and - in fairness - Bob admits that they have undertaken such tours - including the Famous "Castle over the Forth" tour which I followed and my son joined.

I acknowledge that Bob - and his team - know their market best but sometimes - just sometimes - thinking outside the box can produce a surprising result. As a member of the D&G which proposed running the (Class 44) Peak Farewell Tour in October 1977 we were initially rejected by BR who claimed lack of train heating and lack of support as reasons for the train's potential lack of custom; they did direct the organisers to another group (DAA Railtours) to see if sufficient custom could be generated to fill a train. All parties were surprised when a train and a half were filled within DAYS of the advert appearing and BR in response kindly provided the second train (on 15 October and which was filled well before departure date) with a promise that all 6 remaining Class 44s would be used over both trips as they were .

I bow to VT's greater experience in current market situations but hope that the team is still open to the odd "out of the box" suggestion which may - if followed through - produce something greater than a simple railtour. As noted by Admin the gain from running trains as part of LT150 is more than just financial - how can you place a value on the "feel good" factor and the consequent benefits to the reputation of those involved ?

 

Thanks for that response and fully understood. Even though our SLS Orion is only 1/6 scale we have had exactly the same problems with ideas for running other than at the current Shildon (Locomotion) base. We are considering options but operating support crew is the constraint and why the recent option for getting all 3 surviving, steamable, LNWR built engines together at the Bleanavon gala fell through last year.

 

For those of you hankering after a mainline pannier trip in the south, do remember there is another pannier that has run on the mainline recently and is not part of the Tyseley stable - number 9466. It was down for a trip just 6 months ago in Norfolk between Cromer and Norwich, but couldn't make it as it was withdrawn for overhaul. When it comes back there is no reason it couldn't partake in a series of trips around London if an operator was willing to promote it. Also West Coast have the original water carrier.

 

The USP (unique selling point) there was "Steam on the Tube" and "150 years". Tickets were bought mainly on this basis, and by normal people, because it was widely reported in the national press as a unique event and a chunk of history.

Panniers around London, while nice for us who blurb on here, would not command premium pricing or a wide public audience.

 

I disagree… several years ago 48151 and 5690 did some shuttles, for no significant reason, between Marylebone and Beaconsfield.. these sold out quite nicely with minimal publicity.
2015 brings us GW180...

The attraction to London Underground 150 wasn't Met no 1.. it was the public's desire to "do something cool"… most passengers bought tickets via adverts in the Metro, LUL's website and local media… not the railway press. I know one person who bought tickets "for a business deal" as entertainment...
London is different to the rest of the country, one group who's figured it is the guys doing the Brighton Belle.. that will make nice money doing what it was designed to.. routes from London to Oxford, Brighton, Southend etc.. marketed to Tourists in the West End, or Businesses in the City have a market waiting to be tapped.. LUL 150 only scratched the surface.. but 8-12 hour epic journeys are not the way to do it… the £50k earning 20 something only has an attention span of 2-3 hours with his girlfriend, if he finds something quirky in the paper price isn't really the factor… we are however off topic in question.

as I said do I feel it would work...

well this is always sold out:
http://www.bateauxlondon.com/cruises/Thames-lunch-cruises/ £43

this is a typical london price for a couple of hours
http://www.madametussauds.com/London/BuyTickets/Default.aspx £22

and for Oxford..
http://www.premiumtours.co.uk/tours...ur.id48.html?gclid=CMynjZiQ47sCFSYHwwodvjcAIQ £65

£50 will get you a taxi from the west end to the east end.. it doesn't buy much for very long in London.
the list goes on.

 

You can disagree, but you are way off the mark. Its was the unique attraction of steam on the underground. Didn't matter what the engine was called or where it came from it was the strange idea of steam underground (Even tho it wasn't underground for some trips.)



>well this is always sold out:
>http://www.bateauxlondon.com/cruises/Thames-lunch-cruises/ £43

That is a a good view, with lots to see - the link from Hanwell to Greenford don't really cut it for Joe public.

>>this is a typical london price for a couple of hours
>>http://www.madametussauds.com/London/BuyTickets/Default.aspx £22

What the hell does that have to do with it?

>>and for Oxford..
http://www.premiumtours.co.uk/tours...ur.id48.html?gclid=CMynjZiQ47sCFSYHwwodvjcAIQ £65

Do that by steam and and you get passengers. As the established steam operators have done. But it does not have to be a pannier. In fact Joe public will only look at a pannier if its painted blue and called "Thomas"

 

You're wrong there I'm afraid. The various coloured Panniers seem to do quite nicely without being blue and the majority of the passengers they haul will be "Joe Public."