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GCR TPO set

Discussion in 'Heritage Rolling Stock' started by Sidmouth, May 12, 2014.

  1. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    Well yes, and I do accept that in a railway situation the crew can feel a certain added pressure (whether real or of their own making) that the train must never stop except at a station (or signal), and must always keep time.

    It doesn't matter what your text book response on the situation might be - at the time you're more inclined to press ahead and hope for the best. Of course there is also a difference between 'low water', which suggests not as high as ideally it should be, and 'no water'. If you know the geography ahead is generally flat or rising to the next stop, then you can get away with it longer than if you've got a descent looming - when 'low' can become 'no'.
     
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  2. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Sorry to keep pressing the point but if it happened on the GCR, then the GCR is responsible, no matter what the nature of the failure was.
     
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  3. Royalscot

    Royalscot New Member

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    Yes let's wait for the RAIB report, this is right and proper, but let's also have an open and honest debate about safety in general shall we? I don't think there is anything that has been said that is not true, the term 'axe grinder' is particularly unhelpful in this case because you are not aware perhaps of the wider facts in general. I think if you were aware, it is unlikely you'd use the term.
     
  4. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    There's responsible and there's responsible. I will await the RAIB report before apportioning blame.
     
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  5. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Well if there are wider "facts," let's hear them. Far too many people on here apportion blame without publishing any evidence to back up their claims.
     
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  6. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    That's a laudable aspiration but this is Nat Pres and unless you feel like pushing this boulder uphill I'd opt for something more productive to do today...anything else in fact! But well done for trying.
     
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  7. sycamore

    sycamore Member

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  8. Royalscot

    Royalscot New Member

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    Okay you want some facts. I’ll give you some facts, things I know you be true which are defensible in a court of law. There are many other things, but the authorities are aware of them, and they are not for discussion here.

    I spent a short time training with the GCR as a signalman. In the first 5 training turns there was 2 SPADs, in the same period there was at least 2 more on different turns to my knowledge.

    In the last 2 years the GCR have had an extremely serious SPAD which involved an express train overrunning a signal by more than a mile, then another stop signal.

    To my knowledge, these SPADs seem to be a ‘problem’ on that railway. This is a set up that maybe has 40 movements or so a day on a busy day.

    As a comparison at Paddington, there are around 1200, and before the time of Ladbroke Grove there was around 1 per month on average give or take.

    At the time I was there, they were using the 2003 RSSB rule book, which most staff were not trained directly and several bits were ignored. Whether they had dispensation for this I do not know and was unable to get any clear answers. Since then they have brought in their rule book, and this has changed.

    However, in that period more SPADs have occurred, and they’ve had two serious incidents.

    One at Quorn, involving a train which ran off the trap points (not a SPAD I understand, but an incident nonetheless). And now this, again maybe not a SPAD but we shall have to wait and see.

    There are many other things that concern me, but I am not disclosing them here and this is my particular area of expertise.

    My background? I was indirectly involved in the Ladbroke Train collision, and had the run up the the accident the so-called ‘dress rehearsal’ among other SPADs. I gave evidence at the public inquiry and have a thorough understanding of railway regulations and risk.

    Before the accident I warned in a meeting with management in the area (and senior figures in Great Western trains) there was going to be an accident and I was proven to be correct.

    With others, I thought long and hard about going to the regulatory authorities and the press, but we didn’t.

    With the GCR I wasn’t going to make that mistake again, especially as I could (along with others) get no clear answers. We prepared a report to the ORR and left the railway. I’m not saying the railway is unsafe, but in my opinion there is issues, and these incidents lead me to further believe this to be the case.

    I’m taking a great interest in this case, and how the GCR deal with it. That is about as much as I’m going to say on the matter for now, but I am watching them as are others, carefully.

    Depending on the finding of the RAIB report, and should there be further incidents I will be talking to the press about these matters in the future.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
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  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Don't worry, I've got a 43 pages long brochure to digest for the forthcoming Rheinland-Pfalz Dampfspektakel. 99% of it is in German but that will be a doddle compared to this thread. :)
     
  10. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    Tom,

    The comment you made which I took exception to was the assertion that they had taken "no action" in the last two years - a period during which, amongst other things, a new rule book has been produced and issued and operational staff have received training on its contents. This is probably more than most railways have done in this period!

    Whether those rules are adequate, or were being correctly applied, or whether there was some other cause, be it technical, procedural or indeed malicious, and how many of these factors directly led to the incident, is something the inquiry will have to establish.
     
  11. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think we are very misguided if we call for 'whistle-blowers' to be gagged. For every bitter and twisted individual with an axe to grind, there's likely to be someone with genuine concerns who is not being listened to by the management or those who think they know better.
     
  12. sche

    sche New Member

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    I am always amazed at debates like this full of 'experts' and people that are apparently better informed than those that work on these railways.

    I am involved in several and I can think of several that have had far more incidents in the last five years than the GC. Just because they haven't all made the forum....

    Maybe we close them all down? Or maybe we should insist all railways are run by paid 'professionals' ....which would shut them down because they wouldn't be financially viable. The biggest challenge all railways have is that many of those working on them do not have all the safety practices ingrained as second nature because they are a hobby.

    We all need to help and aid the railway movement to effectively train and educate those who know nothing about the dangerous environment they are working in on a part time basis. By publicly humiliating individual railways and organisations all you are doing is pushing the issues under ground. I understand those that feel aggrieved they are being ignored but they clearly are not aware of all the other incidents, some much worse on other busier and better known lines. And they are not aware the efforts the GC have made over the last 18 months to improve awareness and it's rules structure. No one working there is making a conscious effort to ignore rules and bring death and destruction to others. Some of you need to take a reality check! Railways are a dangerous place, they will never be safe!

    I don't know what happened at the GC on Monday, and nor does anyone else on this forum probably. A couple of months ago my neighbour forgot to put her handbrake on; last week a friend was hit by a cyclist because he forgot to use any hand signals, and tomorrow one of you may forget to tie your laces and fall over. I'm not going to be judge jury and executioner because we all make mistakes from time to time.

    My biggest worry is the people on this forum that concentrate on their limited knowledge and are frankly out of control, and the damage they do to the heritage movement.
     
  13. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Hazardous yes, dangerous? I think there are a lot of people with the RAIB and ORR etc that might take issue with you on that one.
     
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  14. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not necessarily. There are scenarios where the GCR would not be held responsible. Not saying it's the case here and not saying it isn't.
     
  15. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    So an event which is all over social media shouldn't be discussed

    I'd argue that a forum such as this where every member can object to a post and moderators take actions , this is the best place to discuss and let us be honest whether it is on the lineside , the pub, Facebook or other forums it will be discussed .

    The challenge is to make sure the discussion is factual , cordial , balanced and we all learn something from it so whatever railway , this sort of incident is much leass likely to ever happen
     
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  16. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Short of something dropping out of the sky onto them, I am hard put to think of many.
     
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  17. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Give it time, I'm sure you'll think of a few.
     
  18. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Absolutely so. Viewed properly, these social media ought to be a spur to good practice in that all people engaged in railway operation ought to be well aware that any corner cutting or carelessness on their part could be splashed all across the world in minutes! Pictorial evidence may well be valuable in determining exactly what happened in any given incident. Now we had better just await the investigations.

    P.H.
     
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  19. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Perhaps you could suggest some?
     
  20. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    With reference to the highlighted comment - and I suppose a sweeping statement that people who don't operate trains for a living are therefore inherently unaware of the risks involved in the activity and constantly need reminding of them isn't damaging to the movement? (Or, for that matter, suggesting that "railways will never be safe" damaging to railways in general!). There is a reality check needed here by somebody, that I will agree.

    Steven
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014

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