The next newbuild

To get back on topic, and given the current WW1 emphasis, one of the freight engines that were sent off with the ROD? We have one survivor in Maude - a Kirtley Midland 0-6-0 _would_ be a nice complement, and being double-framed would be something different.

A design I'd like to see recreated is a Stirling 0-4-2, either GN or GSWR. 0-4-2's were the first 'mixed traffic' engines, as well has hauling a whole load of freight in the early days.

 

err 5322?

 

Err ... P classes 27 and 753. (Boulogne docks shunters)

Tom

 

I did say freight engines - but yeah, I was thinking only of the 0-6-0's and ROD's. Forgot about the ones above. I think there is a list in the latest RM. There are a number of narrow gauge engines as well, but again, I wasn't thinking of them.

In my case, I'm not very interested in the WW1 'celebrations' - its something we should mark the end of, not the beginning, in my view, and we do that every year in November. I was just thinking the ballyhoo might have made it easier to raise money.

So what about a GSWR/GNR 0-4-2 then?

 

So what about a GSWR/GNR 0-4-2 then?

That's a 'sterling' idea Pete2hogs - getting coat now

Dave

 

Going a bit OT I know, but how good was Patrick Stirling - where does he stand in the pantheon of locomotive engineers? Does his reputation rest primarily on the singles, or was there more talent than that?

The reason I ask is that, reading the locomotive history of the South Eastern Railway, it seems that Patrick's brother James was a bit of a dud - but building engines with a certain family resemblance (not just cab shape, but domeless boiler etc).

The root of the problem with James Stirling's engines on the SER seems to be they were under-boilered, coupled with the fact that those domeless boilers were prone to priming when pushed hard. When the SECR formed, Wainwright undertook comparative trials between SER and LCDR engines to see which were better, and the result was pretty much a hands down win for Martley's engines on the LCDR, which thereby formed the basis of subsequent SECR design practice. Meanwhile, the SER engines were progressively rebuilt with improved boilers as the originals came up for renewal.

So coming back to Patrick Stirling - was he better than his brother, or does his reputation precede him on the basis of a single elegant design?

Tom

 

Can't really say, but the Lancashire & Yorkshire managed to get some of his 0-4-2 mixed traffic engines diverted to their line in a time of crisis. They were immediately upgraded to the express passenger role and were reckoned to be the best engines on the line for quite some time.

 

Tom,

You mean Kirtley rather than Martley I think. It would seem that James Stirling's machines were better built than Kirtley's tended to be and the rebuilt F.1 was certainly more satisfactory pottering around on secondary services than a Brighton B2x.

Although the 7ft. driving wheels of an F.1 might brighten the starry eyes of "new build" foolishness ( even better in this respect than 6ft.7ins he says pointedly) somehow I don't see this is a likely step. I would put money on someone starting a project to recreate the Worsborough incline Garratt on the grounds of the absolute utter necessity of having such a machine to haul five or six tatty Mk.1's at 25mph up their 1 in 100 gradients.

PH

 

Ah yes, Kirtley not Martley.

I'd disagree about Stirling's originals being better though. An F1 might be better than a Brighton B2x - but an F1 is as rebuilt by Wainwright! As originally built, they weren't nearly as good. There were comparative trials on the Reading - Redhill line between an SER Stirling O and an LCDR Kirtley B and the results weren't pretty as far as Stirling was concerned. The Stirling O design was much improved when reboilered by Wainwright, which is the form now preserved. But the Wainwright C class is almost pure Chatham in design, rather than South Eastern - to the extent that when built, the men tended to call them "big Bs" and they may even have officially been named similar for a short period.

Tom

 

Ah! I did not say "better" but "better built"! I was quite aware of the Reading - Redhill trials. There is at least one new build project in respect of a prototype which was capable of developing far more power than its structure could cope with, other than when brand new.

PH

 

Patrick Stirling was a pioneer of standardisation and economy. The majority of his engines were robustly built and capable, while being cheap to build and having many standardised components. And in contrast, pretty much every one of his 8ft Singles was different

I'd like to see one of the 0-4-2's because they were an early mixed traffic engine, and early example of standardisation, and represent an era -and indeed a wheel arrangement - of which we have very few working examples (1860's -1880's). Most new builds are aimed at mainline service or the larger preservation lines - one of these would be an excellent draw visiting smaller operations, and light enough to move around fairly easily.

 

I'd love to see a new Stirling 0-4-2 but I suspect it might struggle to attract funding from the enthusiast community because it didn't survive long enough to carry BR black. But...

Wasn't the first engine built at Doncaster a Stirling 0-4-2? (I stand to be corrected!) If so, a new-build project could be based in Doncaster. Get the local authorities on board by saying it will put the town back on the map as an engineering centre, and promising to draw on local suppliers as far as possible. Investigate the possibility of attracting commercial sponsorship from Doncaster-based firms; perhaps even see if grant-aid could be obtained to pay apprentices to work on the project, who get training as part of the deal?

When the engine is finished, perhaps restore a train of GNR coaches to run with it - there must be some grounded bodies out there somewhere.

Just an idea

 

P2 2007 never saw BR livery but but seems to be doing alright for money. A Stirling 0-4-2 would be an excellent choice IMO, especially if it could be teamed up with some four and six wheelers.

 

The Bluebell Long Term Plan, post-Beachy Head, essentially has exactly that idea - mid-Victorian engine and matching carriages - except that it is proposed to be a 2-4-0 of LBSCR form, rather than an 0-4-2 of GNR form.

"Planned projects anticipated for 10 years to 2023:

Commence construction of a replica LB&SCR "Craven era" locomotive.
Development of a historic "Craven era" carriage set."

Whether it really gets going remains to be seen - potentially quite useful, especially when considering filming work; definitely buildable; fundable? Let's see... We have Beachy Head to finish first.

Tom

 

Surely that's more down to the P2 being an already iconic class of loco and the status of the organisation building it?

 

Quite possibly but whatever the reason, it's going well so far.

 

Ok, I'm being slightly facetious but you know what I mean...

The P2s were sufficiently iconic that even those enthusiasts brought up during the BR era (or later) know what they look like. A Stirling 0-4-2 is much more obscure.

(Also, I'm sure it's only a mater of time before somebody sponsors the P2SLT to paint Prince of Wales in BR green...just to see what it might have looked like, you understand. Trust me. Just you wait. )

I'm a big fan of the Bluebell's plan to create a Craven era train - and hopefully, the Bluebell has a big enough support base of pre-grouping aficionados that they might just pull it off. But as you say, Beachy Head first!

 

reckon it will be lined black first - unless fashions have changed when the time comes.

 

2001 became 60501 Cock of the North according to my ABC.. ,2002-6 as 60502 -60506, same loco, same number of wheels, just a different arrangement.