The Scottish Lowlander, 27th September.

Swiftly bringing the thread back onto topic after all the previous waffle, in respect of the supposedl change in itinerary, I can now confirm that the Railway Herald information on the 'Scottish Lowlander' had not been updated since it was announced; indeed I am now reliably advised that RH were given the exclusive on the announcement of the tour, but then hadn't been informed that it had changed before the final details had been passed to everyone else. That said, my contact advises that it's clearly a very rare occurrence for RH to be wrong, as evidenced by the above-mentioned comments on NatPres.
Although it's still a bit early for definitve timings, the train will run to Edinburgh Waverley and will only bypass Glasgow to the south of the city-centre on the return. Sounds as if it's going to be a very long day - especially for the support crews - but well worth the experience for all, and particularly for those who were lucky enough to have been on the original train in 1964!

 

Looks like the fun and games of this tour have started on RTT... No mention of Edinburgh just yet, but this is could very well be a 'skeleton' set of times that is still being finalised. I say this as it is being timed for 60mph maximum at the moment. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U50723/2014/09/27/advanced

Either way, interesting that the preliminary timings are sending us via Prestwick and Dalry. If this turns out to be the actual route, there is some pretty rare track there for those like myself who did not do the Stranraer trip. Furthermore, its 517.5 miles, so only c45 miles off the total planned mileage.

Will have to see if this is tweaked any further, but if not, it certainly captures the spirit of an RCTS trip in its ambitious routing and sheer mileage. If the modern railway cannot accommodate the preferred option, then I would be fairly happy with this, although it has to be said that aside from Carlisle, there's no real option of leaving the train as things currently stand on RTT, and there's a good 41 minute stop at Falkland DGL. So the advice is to stock-up on grub and drink.

As mentioned previously, the crossing of Glasgow follows a similar route to Monday's West Highlander return trip, although they have a longer wait at Falkland.

 

Im aure the timings will change. Rtc should not advised tour to edinburgh if not going their. Lots of unhappy peoe if only got a 30 minute break for over 15 hours travelling. Anyone from RTC on this forum can advise?

 

Given that this is very much an 'enthusiasts' tour then I don't think that the lack of a 'destination' would be a particular problem. These timings do at least suggest that a path for this train has been found and, whilst not the original routing from Carstairs to Mauchline, it is probably the best that can be realistically achieved in one day without a horribly late finish. Even this will require some fast running, which should make it a trip worth being on.

 

The thing is, RTC couldn't have known what would happen once NR started timing it only a week before the off. The plan probably seemed fairly solid, if ambitious, when mooted. However, once you get an overcrowded Scotrail network into the mix, and having to cross the paths of several services at several junctions, as well as being looped to allow faster services past you, the 'white space' on the WTT becomes inconvenient at best, and at worst non-existent. There's scope for some pretty fast running between Crewe and Carlisle, with the trip scheduled for 3 hrs 16 minutes including stops. Aside from the stop at Carstairs, there's little time to hang about over Beattock, either. However, this might have tweaks made to it right up until the day before the trip, as has happened on a few other occasions.

 

Perhaps the original proposal always was ambitious, but from the outset the mission was to recreate the original tour as far as possible. Surely, it is up to the railway industry to say what is achievable or not - not a tour promoter? I could go to West Coast and say I want to take a steam loco from Penzance to Wick in a day and get back home in time for dinner; isn't it up to them to turn around and say this isn't achievable? Only West Coast and Network Rail have the latest up to date information on what can and can't be done. This tour has been on the table for at least the last 9 months, why are network rail only just saying it can't be done? Or has it been sat on a desk for 8 months?
I firmly believe that no other promoter would even consider this trip and I believe that is a good thing. Too many tour operators are now playing it safe, only RTC are willing to push the boundaries of what Open Access actually means and allows you to do. Too many promoters are now cashing in on the frilly table cloth and dining market, RTC are one of the few who still cater for enthusiasts. Yes the railway is getting more congested, yes the doom mongerers keep saying that steam will be pushed off the mainline - isn't that even more reason to do as much as we can while we can?
Nobody expected this tour to run as planned, as enthusiasts we now come to expect that, but it will still be better than anything else run this year and that is credit to RTC.

 

Those timings between Crewe and Carlisle are enough to get me excited!

 

RTC and West Coast work very closely together, the 'someone with the knowledge' should lie within that relationship as to what is and isn't feasible. Even if the route was published in the brochure with the very best intentions of it being achievable, the biggest question I think that needs answering is why the route is only being change a week before it is run. If it had been changed back in April or May, then none of us would have been having this conversation, as those who did not like the changes could have made their choices. I really hope Network Rail haven't sat on a proposal as complicated as this for 8 months, what's the point on giving them nearly a year's notice?
But as I said previously, the vast majority on this tour will be enthusiasts who would be fully expecting changes and are probably more than happy with the next best proposal - that doesn't make it right however, but I don't think it is fully RTC's fault. I would not wish to discourage them for being ambitious either, we don't expect marathons like this every month, but Open Access is still there for us to use and an odd big one off like this is what it is all about.

 

I suspect I will regret making a posting to point this out, but "Open Access" doesn't mean "anytime, any place, anywhere" - it is subject to a number of requirements and available paths is one of them.

I suspect the real issue with complex itineraries is that they are a "Catch 22" - there is a lot of work involved in planning them, and hence perhaps not a rush (by either the TOC or NwR) to plan them in case lack of bookings, loco failure or some other reason means the tour gets cancelled well ahead of running. Open Access, especially charter, operators have to take "what is left" and especially on the freight side, there can be paths in the Working Timetable which are activated or not as traffic requires (WCRC has a number of these for regular moves), and hence "white space" can appear if a flow is suspended which wouldn't be there if planned months in advance.

Not easy for anyone but probably the main real gripe is not what people initially promise, unless clearly undeliverable and there only to "hook" bookings, but the way that changes seem not to be communicated rapidly when they occur. Even here, it may be that the TOC is negotiating to achieve a better result and the judgement for the promoter is whether multiple changing information is better than one clear message when things have been finalised. The answer to that may depend on the market (enthusiasts like to be kept up to date, more general travellers might not appreciate and might be confused by multiple messages).

Steven

 

Do we need to worry that there are no light engine movements after our train has departed Crewe nor when we arrive back? 15 hours at the back of a 13 coach train listening to a diesel would not be an ideal outcome. Not sure how I will survive the day without a visit to a Spoons for lunch and a pint or three.

 

Don't disagree with that. Is it perhaps a case at times that the perception that enthusiasts want "more" or as accurate recreations of the past as is possible actually "incites" some promoters to make offers they have no real chance of delivering?

I do also wonder if there is an assumption that non-enthusiast passengers won't mind the changes - and whether that is really the case?

Steven

 

they'll be feeding them to the firebox later

 

It has now been confirmed, via Railway Herald, that the tour will no longer go to either Edinburgh or Glasgow, but will be continuing on the WCML to Polmadie, then via the Clydesdale Loop, Paisley Gilmour Street and the G&SW to Carlisle. This path is also now available on RTT:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U50723/2014/09/27/advanced

The reasoning given for the change is "due to pathing, gauging and Ryder Cup Extras".

 

RTC put a huge amount of effort into organising some wonderful trips. It's just a shame that they don't put all the effort they might into providing accurate information on their website; making clear which aspects of a trip are aspirations that they hope to achieve and which aspects they confidently expect to achieve; and updating the information as soon as they learn of changes.

As for NR, a major problem is the sheer volume of traffic nowadays, with lines close to maximum capacity; and Bean-counter has pointed out some valid reasons why final decisions about paths may need to be taken close to the date. But it would help if provisional paths were worked out much earlier, possibly along the lines of "If such-and-such a freight path is activated we can't do X but we can do Y instead".

Maybe NR should buy a supercomputer.