Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

I think one piece of data which may be informative is to look at Peppercorn,'s designs. These owe far more to Thompson than to Gresley....

 

Did you know that Peppercorn was considered as Gresley's replace my before Thompson got the job? I'd argue that Peppercorn had clear ideas of his own as to what he would design and they have Doncaster through them like a stick of rock. Even Thompson's misfits were unmistakably Doncaster.

 

I also have quite a soft spot for 60113. Elegant in a odd kind of way, despite the cylinder position (which for all that is not so different to a Lizzie or a Castle - both usually spoken of as very elegant).
But.... the A3 is still the best looking large British loco ever (speaking as an LMS fan)!
Just a shame it was 4470 which was rebuilt! I think if it had been 2796 "Spearmint" no one would have minded...

 

A certain Mr McKillop might have objected a bit....

 

Yes they do at a glance. But have a look at LDP's proposal for "Tornado" or the next A1 build. Unified drive. Why? So that the frames do not have to be engaged absorbing out of balance forces. The 50 sq ft of grate area was not a new idea on the LNE fresh from the mind of ET either, it was proposed for the next development of the A4s, the so called "Super A4", G.A. prepared by Mr Spencer. At least Peppercorn agreed to abandoning the pseudo Chapelon cylinder position but the drive remained divided.

So though Peppercorn took the divided drive from ET what else did he take? The boiler was a simple development a well established LNE type, the rear truck design was not changed, the Driving Wheel diameter remained the same and so on. All well established aspects of LNE Pacific design, established under?

ET may go down in history as the only CME who had a locomotive designed around some connecting rods.

 

???????

 

That would be Norman McKillop.

Norman McKillop was the regular driver of 60100 at Haymarket during the '50s. He wrote a superb book - "Enginemen Elite" - well worth trying to find a copy as it is an excellent autobiography of a driver's life on the footplate.

Cheers

Alan

 

I know nothing of LNER Pacifics, but isn't it entirely unsurprising that the oldest A1 was next in the queue for major works attention? The thing that strikes me is that it wasn't one man (Thompson) that got locos wrong , it was Doncaster works LNER.

 

The latter have the outside cylinders roughly level with the rear bogie wheels. The Thompson A1 bogie is a lot further forward, presumably because of the long connecting rod for the inside cylinder. That makes the position of the outside cylinders seem more extreme. The Peppercorn A1 has the outside cylinders midway between the bogie wheels, presumably achieved by having the inside connecting rod much shorter than the outside ones.

 

4470 had received new frames in 1933 and there were still 13 A1s with the original frames(though no doubt much repaired) I doubt 4470 had the original boiler either, since boilers were swapped indiscriminately to ensure rapid turnaround in the shops - only Yeadon could tell us if it still did. So really there's no reason why at that particular time 4470 should have been the next in the queue for works attention, as it wasn't the one with the oldest aggregate of parts.

 

Quote:4470 had received new frames in 1933 and there were still 13 A1s with the original frames(though no doubt much repaired) I doubt 4470 had the original boiler either, since boilers were swapped indiscriminately to ensure rapid turnaround in the shops - only Yeadon could tell us if it still did. So really there's no reason why at that particular time 4470 should have been the next in the queue for works attention, as it wasn't the one with the oldest aggregate of parts. unquote

nor any reason to preserve it as something special then either if it was not original. I can't believe the inference that this loco was chosen out of malice or spite! We're talking about a business here!

 

A poor argument. To use that guideline would disqualify most locos from preservation as few would be "original" as built due to interchange of components at overhaul.

 

A poor argument in your opinion

 

Then let's scrap 6000 as that's not the loco which emerged from Swindon Works in 1927. While we're at it we can add 4073, 4468, 6229 - the list goes on.

 

and City of Truro. Pity they only preserved the nameplates.

 

Don't be ridiculous.

 

Ridiculous in your opinion.

 

Please lets not go here again, the fact that Thompson rebuilt Great Northern out of spite has been debated to death on here - its similar to the argument that the Bulleid pacifics were rebuilt by Jarvis for no particular reason and were fine as they were! The business argument (i.e. these companies had shareholders and wouldn't spend money for the sake of it) has never been accepted through either debate. - we are just going over old ground.

 

touché (but it's the only one I have...)