Rebuilt Patriot and Rebuilt Scot

Has no one mentioned that 1930's anachronism, the ultimate in retro-styling, the Dukedog? How crews from other companies must have reacted to seeing one of these 'new loco's' rolling up to an adjacent platform one can only wonder!

 

Ah yes. Just imagine the railway scene in Britain on the eve of the Second World War:

On the Southern, a striking new Malachite paint scheme is being applied to a stupendous class of 3 cylinder 4-4-0s, running Waterloo to Bournemouth expresses in two hours, while mainline electric trains rush to the south coast resorts. On the East Coast, garter blue A4s are streaking north at 100mph. On the west coast, giant Duchesses are hauling prodigious loads at speed over the northern hills.

Meanwhile, in Swindon, Victoria is still on the throne, the Kaiser is still the future King's cousin, Churchill is a young war reporter in South Africa and the works are busy turning out the latest state-of-the-art double-frame 4-4-0s ...

Tom

 

Thank you for that explanation. I have always wondered about the SR classifications ever since my first holiday visit to Devon, with my parents, in 1962. (Pulled by "Lydford" from Barnstaple Junction to Exeter Central for a day's spotting, including 72A: Absolute heaven for a young lad whose home sheds were 55A, 50A and 36A.) Do you know the meaning of the yellow triangle on the cabside? Water treatment?

 

I must admit that it turns out ignorance was bliss where all classification business is concerned.
I wish the LMS had had a proper class designation system like the LNER...
(unabashed LMS fan).

 

Its always been a fascinating thing to me.. is to look back at documents / images etc from the late 1930s.. and to see the complete naivety at was about to become..
In my room I have a Summer 1939 LMS timetable... not a hint inside... indeed it's even advertising LMS Airline flights to the Isle of Man !

The other interesting example is those Borsig guys in Ashford building 4-4-0's (imported from Germany) who completed them in July 1914.. did they really complete assembly of them to the letter or drop tools and got out of town on the last boat ??

Its scary to compare those images to our current life and how easily it could be turned upside down...for instance what happens if we quit the EU and Europe says no... would Putin be our ally or our enemy ?.. Kind of suspect that decision would split East / West Europe overnight and start the war right there...
As for our rail network... 7 well placed explosions on 7 well intended centralised signal boxes / power supply sources would see steam back on the mainline and manual signalling for the rest of the term putting us at equal with Russia's primitive road vehicles.

 

I have a copy (not in good condition) of the 1939 copy of the GWR "Holiday Haunts" catalogue. It makes for interesting reading. Despite apparent commercial normality (business always does well, even in conflict) the UK was very busy preparing for the inevitability of WWII, witness the phenomenal "expansion period" of the RAF in the years 1936 to 1940, with many new "permanent" bases being built and some aircraft types ordered off the drawing board. Anyway, must stop now as we are on holiday and its our 25th wedding anniversary and I've just received a stern look from my other half.

 

Did the Black 5 and the 8F share the same boiler ?

 

No, the 8Fs' barrel was one foot shorter than the Black Fives'. There were in fact four types of Class 3 boiler: 3A = Jubilee; 3B = Black Five; 3C = 8F and 3D = 2-6-0. However, the 3A, 3B and 3C boilers were each subdivided into two sub-groups: vertical and sloping throatplate. There was therefore seven types of Class 3 boiler, none of which were readily interchangeable without modifications to the receiving engine's frames, and then only within the same class of engine.

 

I believe the 44901 group were/are (the patriot group have given up waiting for it) going to use the boiler from the 8F that still hasn't returned from Turkey, with the relevant modifications.

 

They would need to replace the front boiler ring, which was made parallel specifically to allow the same firebox and tapered boiler section to be common. The small tubes on the Black Five were 1 7/8" while those of the 8F are only 1 3/4", so unless tubeplates are changed, it might be a little shy for steam. Superheaters will interchange, but new, longer elements required, along with new tubes and flues.

 

A fine example of standardisation.

 

... or getting the best tool for the job!

 

Not if it's a Belpaire box it isn't.

But as a small aside, it is a shame that Maeve is not included here, for comparison's sake and all that.

 

Aye, the excuse I read for this was because they prefer working with Steel Fireboxes... ??? errr...

 

Now you're talking....
Despite the superficial similarities (i.e
very handsome!) I think the GSR 800s had little detail in common with the LMS rebuilt 4-6-0s. For example, I believe the Irish locos have parallel boilers under the casing. But what magnificent locos, and how wonderful we still have one, even if there is no realistic prospect of her steaming again.
Of course the 800s (or B1a if you prefer) predated the LMS rebuilds (apart from British Legion)

 

Yes, AFAIK it showed the locos were fitted with the briquette water treatment system. Originally I believe it was a round dot rather than a triangle.

There are lots of oddities when you look closely. Amongst the mixed traffic designs, it seems they tended to either use separate P/F classifications (i.e. 2P 2F) but sometimes just a number (i.e. 4). I'm not sure if it was time-dependent, or just local variation amongst the people responsible for painting.

Some examples (none of them my photos, and all modern photos though I believe properly researched):

34067 Tangmere - labelled 7P 5FA, yellow triangle - http://www.hentis-rail.co.uk/PooleGallery/2012/PEJD12/images/2/34067Number.JPG

73082 Camelot - labelled 5P/5F (with slash, no brake classification), yellow dot - http://www.the-siding.co.uk/steam/pictures/73082.jpg (I think this is an earlier scheme)

32473 Birch Grove - labelled 2P 2FB (no water treatment) - http://www.the-siding.co.uk/steam/pictures/73082.jpg

80151 - labelled plain 4 (implying mixed traffic), yellow triangle - http://locoyard.files.wordpress.com...park-br-standard-4mt-tank-80151-rear-view.jpg

32678 Knowle - labelled 0P (because it is a passenger design, not mixed-traffic, so can't just be labelled "0") - https://locoyard.files.wordpress.co...tenterden-town-a1x-terrier-ex-lbscr-32678.jpg

And for perversity: 30585 - labelled 0P because technically it was built as a passenger tank, even though a Beattie Well Tank probably hadn't had a regular passenger duty for about 50 years by time they received a BR power classification! - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/LSWR_0298_Class_Beattie_Well_Tank_4.jpg

The Standard and Fairburn class 4s were both classified 4P 4FA. However, the Fairburn's at least seemed to arrive on the Southern with just 4P as a power classification (I believe they were classified 4P by the LMS). Given that a more common class-labelling scheme on the Southern was letter-number rather than number-letter, they rapidly became known as P4's (even though fundamentally the class name and power classification are entirely separate constructs).

Tom

 

A point of view, of course, and there is some merit to it. But while the LNER stayed with round-topped fireboxes, the GWR, LMS and Southern, even after OVS Bulleid came from the LNER, and BR all went for Belpaires.

 

But surely, 242A1, Chapelon used Belpaire boxes on all his new-build designs...

 

When you're building to the limits of the loading gauge,boiler design very much becomes a compromise of limiting dimensions (how many people realise that wheel diameter limits the size of a boiler?) and it is easier to fit the safety valves in on a Belpaire boiler.