Flying Scotsman

December 1949 - February 1952 as evidenced here;

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=600112003&loco=60103

 

Ah, that's a big IF, reading between the lines. My money would be on Hellifield.

 

Hasn't the NYMR been mentioned for running in? The ELR seems to have fallen from favour.

 

Without wishing to restart the whole sorry flamewar I wish people wouldn't make dogmatic statements like this. The rate at which threads disintegrate into flame wars on this bizarre topic clearly demonstrates that the choice isn't automatic, and folk have differing opinions. Its a big world, and people's priorities vary. We're running these locos alongside modern signalling, modern design overhead wires, often modern stations, hi vis jackets everywhere and modern clothes on the station platforms, none of which is authentic. We're all prepared to adapt to changing circumstances if we have no choice. Who am I to dogmatically assert to my fellow man that one kind of authenticity does matter and another kind doesn't?

 

To me, everything that happened to make Flying Scotsman famous happened when it was in apple green and numbered 4472 with LNER on the tender - either the record breaking glory days of the 1930s, or its post-preservation exploits. If, as some have suggested, the public won't even notice the shade of green, then presumably it is true that they wouldn't notice a myriad other details: in which case, why assume they could even tell the difference between an A3 or a rebuilt West Country or even a King or Castle? I don't buy that argument: whatever other subtleties pass people by, I'm sure if you asked most of the general public about Flying Scotsman, they wouldn't describe a dark green loco numbered 60103.

For want of proof, this I suspect is how many children will imagine Flying Scotsman. It may not have the right number of wheels, but it is apple green and numbered 4472.



Tom

 

Tom has, as often, hit the nail on the head - the shade of green and the cab side number (and "L.N.E.R." on the tender) as visible long before you can read the nameplate - it is the loco's "brand", whereas the NRM will have something a different colour and a different number.

Steven

 

By whom?

 

The "public" is too encompassing a term, but members of the public with no interest in steam locomotives in my experience can't "tell the difference between an A3 or a rebuilt West Country or even a King or Castle."

 

Indeed no matter what happens with this engines the "owners" will be wrong! One possible way round running her in LNER livery, is to run her with the same style deflectors as Humorist i.e. the type on Blue Peter and Tornado. As Humorist ran in LNER pre war days with the double chimney/ Kylychap arrangements and the Blue Peter/Tornado deflectors before they were built. What's more I seem to recall that having experianced 5 pacifics [1xA3+4xA4s] with this arrangement Gresley was of the view that all new build pacifics be fitted from new and the extisting machines retro fitted as they passed through the works for overhaul. The two reasons that didn't happen during Gresley and the LNERs life were the poor financal situation of the Company and World War 2. Ironically the patent expired not long after Gresley passed away in 1941!

 

Can anyone tell the difference between a King and a Castle?

 

Seems to be a theme going on here...

NRM raises money for new injectors for 34051: enthusiasts go on a tangent saying waste of money, and why not spend it on something else.
NRM paints 60103 in black: enthusiasts go on a tangent by pointing out all the historical inaccuracies in relation to its current configuration.
NRM decides to paint 60103 in a more appropriate livery for its condition: enthusiasts go on a tangent by saying that historical accuracy should be thrown out the window as the LNER colour 'made' the locomotive in preservation.

It seems whatever the NRM decides, it cannot win. I for one am really pleased with this decision, as it rings in the changes, and I think having British Railways on the tender is an eminently appropriate way of acknowledging that it is 'the people's engine'. It just seems people enjoy having a pop for the sake of it.

 

Apparently such people exist, though I've never met one...

Reminds me of a story told about Sir Arthur Eddington, who gave the first experimental validation of Einstein's theory of relativity.

One day Eddington was giving a lecture on the subject. After he finished, someone asked, "Sir Arthur, is it true that you are one of only three people in the world to understand relativity?"

There was a long pause. "Come Sir Arthur, don't be so modest!"

"I'm not being modest," Eddington eventually replied. "I'm trying to think who the third person is!"

Tom

 

So that suggests that the move is permanent - and the appeal to fit vacuum brakes so the loco could run with restored teak coaches was at best a waste of time.

Steven

 

Well as operator of the Loco for the next couple of years the running in card is in Mr Rileys Hand

But since only two ( albeit the biggest, 3 if you want to be picky and include quad arts) Heritage railways can string together Gresley Teaks)
Nearly all can string together some Maroon Mk1's, so in terms of hiring out terms its actually more 'democratic'

 

Who said the move was permanent? As one of our remits is to educate, then BR green is but one livery the engine could wear. We are aiming to tell the loco's story using the machine itself.

 

Totally with you on this NRM seems to be between a Rock and a Hard Place with whatever they do. I'd also suggest that those of you who'd like to see it in apple green with a single chimney, speak to Mr Kirkman at the NRM, make a plan and raise the funds, simple as. Now as Big Al says can we stop with the paint froth? Its going BR Green, get over it.

 

Then why does the Pres Release state this is the only authentic combination of condition and livery - that implies what I said - unless there is further expenditure restoring the loco to the condition it was in for the majority of its working life (and certainly far longer than the present condition), then only the present livery is authentic. We were previously told authenticity was not considered as the deciding factor in the way it might for other exhibits for what used to be 4472, so why has this changed? And where is the undertaking that the loco will be repainted into its "brand" colours and be able to fulfill the commitment made when appealing for funding for vacuum brakes? (And if authenticity is the key now, I presume the air brakes will be removed?)

Steven

 

Oh for Gods sake!!! Anthony Coulls and everyone else @ the NRM must be losing the will to live after reading some of the recent froth generated in this thread. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but must they go on, and on, and on? If you don't like it, say so, then move on to disrupt another thread somewhere.