Flying Scotsman

Agreed Simon, apologies I didn't pick up on the detail and yes in principle what SR have organised with the support of its readership should entitle them to some influence , but that influence must then also be exercised even-handedly and in consensus with their readership

 

Well, I wonder what influence Richard Branson has, then? Or, indeed, the number of youngsters, at the time, who put their pocket money towards buying the loco.

 

Sure Mr Branson has channels appropriate to his generosity and as for the donations from youngsters im not sure what specific influence on the outcome they would have wished for, but im guessing it would have been 'done properly' and back in steam 3 years ago. and not in BR Green...

 

Didn't BR(E) go back to outshopping coaches in varnished teak? Or am I totally imagining that?

 

I was under the impression that after a while, teak stock was painted teak effect rather than varnished, once it became too difficult to maintain a decent finish using varnish. So quite likely that there would be teak carriages in the mid 1950s, but relatively few would be varnished - most would be painted, either on top of original teak panels or possibly replacement metal panels.

An article I have seen quoted on Southern liveried carriages (but presumably the proportions would be similar elsewhere) gave the following details for postwar liveries:

As at June 1948:

10% of BR(S) carriages in Maunsell (pre-war) livery. The remainder in various shades of green, both Bulleid (sunshine livery) and assorted shades of green used on the "whatever was available" principal during the war.

As at December 1954:

The steam-hauled stock was as follows:

• Crimson lake and cream (largely mainline corridor stock): 1,409 (41%)
• Crimson lake, some lined, some plain (largely non-corridor stock): 441 (13%)
• Southern Railway Green, mostly Bulleid but a very small amount still in pre-war liveries (mixture of corridor and non-corridor): 1,561 (46%)

Those figures would be typical of what you would expect with an average interval of about 10 years between full carriage repaints.

So even by the mid 1950s, on BR(S) at least (but presumably similar elsewhere), nearly half the carriage stock was still in pre-nationalisation liveries (probably renumbered into the BR series), though mostly post-war rather than pre-war liveries.

Tom

 

Not that I know of. I think when regions were allowed to choose their own colours again the Eastern region was offered the choice of scumbling but the declined, sticking with maroon.

 

Thompson stock, and some Gresley stock, was steel clad and always painted in "scumbled teak" - a skillful "fake teak" finish. Some originally wood paneled stock was so treated due to use of poorer quality wood, and I believe that plain brown may have been used during the War (at least Bachmann would have you believe it was!)

In fact, I believe getting any paint to adhere properly to the teak wasn't easy.

The Eastern Region were given the option of using scumbled teak when the Southern and Western Regions adopted "Big Four" derived liveries, but, as Alex says, it wasn't taken up and BR maroon was used instead (simplified NER Livery - well, the Eastern region headquarters were I believe in the NER Headquarters at York!)

Steven

 

Ok, fair point...but nevertheless, 60103 will be restored to double-chimney form, and the A3s didn't start receiving double-chimneys until 1958 (apart from Humorist, which had a different design of smoke deflectors). I have certainly never seen a photograph of a double-chimney, German-deflector fitted A3 hauling even a single varnished-teak coach, let alone a full rake - though if anybody has one I'd be delighted to see it! (No photoshop trickery, please...!)

 

Easy answer to that: Apple Green, no smoke deflectors, single chimney, teak carriages, jobs a good'un.

OK, I'll get my coat ...

Tom

 

Indeed, in what is now the Cedar Court Grand Hotel next to the original York terminus.

 

Are you sure that York was the Eastern Region HQ in the period we are talking about (ie 1950s)? I thought it was the North Eastern Region HQ then and the Eastern HQ was at Liverpool Street in those days. Remember the regional colors then - tangerine for the NER and dark blue for the ER.

Peter

 

Chosen by name alone, I think - so when things didn't work out, they could still have a laugh about it, and boy was she the test bed for some interesting experiments!

As for a blinkered double chimmnied A3 in BR Green on a rake of teaks - who the hell cares, there's a finite point to which you can recreate history............ and FS has created enough in her lifetime, so bring it on and let her continue to do so!!

Yes please, your taxis waiting!...........

 

As I said earlier, it depends on which class received BR Dark Green. The A2 and the A2 sub classes all went from apple green to dark green: therefore seeing an A2 with varnished teaks in BR dark green is not necessarily a flight of fancy.

The class 8Ps (A1, A1/1, A3 and A4 classes) are less likely - and probably never were so paired - due to the experimental blue/purple and express passenger blue livery interludes up to 1952.

Steel panelled Thompson and Gresley coaches were "scumbled" (a faux teak finish), I don't believe teak coaches were ever actually painted in a plain brown livery (certainly never come across it in any of the books I've read - always happy to be corrected though).

 

I wondered if that was the case, hence the qualification "I believe..." (anyone able to recite the full Creed?!?)

Steven

 

Fair point, I forgot. Though I must say I hadn't realised that the NE region last till the end of 1966! I was, somehow, under the impression it went earlier than that.
Still, it means that the NE region also went for maroon if it was offered the choice that the Eastern was.

 

Liverpool St was HQ for the GA & York was HQ for ER........... IIRC!

Any road, we digress.......

 

I don't think SR has any say in where it runs but I think it did have something to do with the livery.

I think in 2004 after the NRM acquired the loco, SR conducted a poll where readers were asked which livery they would like the loco to appear in next and the NRM would paint the loco in the winning livery (I think the options were LNER Apple Green, BR Express Blue and Brunswick Green) at a future point and the winning livery was Brunswick Green which is the livery the loco will return in.

But I'm sure that when SR launched the appeal for the Vaccum Brakes a few years back (can't remember exactly when), visits to the SVR and NYMR to pair the loco with the Teaks were part of the appeal but at the time it was probably expected that the loco would return to steam in Apple Green as 4472 rather than Brunswick Green as 60103 but it is a coup for both lines to get her as a visitor and like 60163 when she first steamed, where she goes there's sure to be a crowd.

 

Yes, Steam Railway ran an appeal to have 4472 repainted into her 60103 guise and the NRM then redirected the funds towards the brakes instead, due to the overhaul I believe (please correct me if I am wrong). So on several counts we can see that Steam Railway do have a right to a say on the locomotive - but again, not the final decisions.

I'm excited for the BR dark green. No, it's not my first choice and I think the majority would prefer the apple green, but having not seen Scotsman in the flesh, and in steam, since Llangollen early 1990s, it'll be thrilling to see her in the dark green again. Almost, I hope, like there wasn't a twenty year period between first and last sightings...the five year old me standing next to the great engine again, gazing up at a lovingly polished nameplate standing proud against a dark green boiler behind.

I'm so excited for Scotsman's re-emerging. Truly, a great locomotive and a great achiever. She's been unlucky but I think all that is set to change.

 

Flying Scotsman return to service not far away

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2015/flying-scotsman-return-to-service-not-far-away/

David R

 

For a long time i've wanted to see a rake of Gresley coaches in BR livery, with the fondness for BR liveried loco's now it makes sense....