Flying Scotsman

So that's a case that any point of view that does not follow the 'We love FS' line is censored. Disagreement will not be tolerated.

 

Thanks, Anthony, for the plug. Yes, I do have rather more of a background in preservation than almost anyone on this forum.

Without giving a full biography, I suppose you could call it a failure when I first tried to buy an O2. There were two problems. First, it was 1962 and BR was still to keep using the O2s for another 4 years - the ones worth preserving, that is - and secondly, BR responded that my offered price would be too low even if one was available. I was back on the case as soon as I was told the date when steam would end.

The chronology of events is a tad awry but it will pass.

 

It's off-topic but Fishbourne was in a terrible state by the end of steam on the Island. She only ran on the last day by dint of some hard (and definitely unauthorised) work by Ryde Works staff. She struggled to get back to Ryde on the last train and can be heard wheezing badly on recordings of that journey. She was definitely my favourite and I would have loved for her to be preserved but hard-nosed practicality meant that there was no way she could be restored given the resources available and we had to let her go for scrap. (Oh, I seem to be back on topic!)

W31 was another matter. She had been reserved for preservation - as had so much other stock on the Island - but that scheme (and all the others for that matter) failed. It would have been good to buy another O2 but we had to be realistic. In any case, we had enough problems with 24 stuck at Ryde after the connection with the Cowes line was severed - one day the full story of the lengths we went to to get round that problem will be told; buying a second locomotive stuck at Ryde would have been a foolish move.

 

At the risk of reopening a can of worms which may (or may not have been sealed), can I make 2 points:

1. Yes, there has been a considerable sum of NRM/Science Museum funding go into 4472, but also a vast amount of donated money. The whole of preservation views donations (grants, bequests etc.) as what they need to be able to undertake a activity the world of business deemed uneconomic 50 years, as well, of course, as vast amounts of volunteer labour! When people make donations it is to see something happen; it is precisely because the project in question is not assured of "earning back its money" that donations are sort. The only time the initial cost of a steam locomotive is going to be recovered is by selling it!
2. The whole aim of the extent of the work being done in this overhaul is to put right everything that is wrong and thereby enable efficient operation and cost effective future maintenance and overhauls. A very long serving and extremely highly respected Railway Mechanical Engineer has stated more than once that this sort of extent of work (he has, I would stress, not specifically commented on 4472 but he has commented on similar projects) "resets" the boiler life and a thoroughly rebuilt boiler should last over 40 years before needing such extensive work again. While the first locos to receive such extensive work are still very much at the earlier stages of that 40 years, subject to suitable handling and care, it is expected that the next overhaul will be much cheaper and there are examples of "10 year" overhauls of admittedly Class 4 to 6 locomotives costing £200k to £300k and still involving pretty extensive work. The maths quoted suggest the NRM should be able to cover a figure considerably in excess of this in 5/7/10 years time.

4472 is a world-wide "brand" and having the locomotive back in steam and acting as a roving ambassador for the NRM will allow a wide range of income earning opportunities in addition to loco hire fees. To suggest that all that has spent to date be wasted and the locomotive re-assemebled (which will not happen by magic but will have a cost) and just displayed makes no sense. Yes, occasionally, vast sums are spent and it is clear the project is never going to deliver but I have in my time had to argued the case that a discounted cash flow that shows no surplus but recovers most of the amount already expended is a preferable outcome to abandoning a project and realising a few £1,000 scrap now - and do you know, in reality, the income stream in that case is still continuing and the project returning healthy annual surpluses without the need thus far for further major expenditure!

Steven

(I am not going to list my "qualification" to comment!)

 

At the risk of being shot at dawn, can I ask if anyone actually knows, as distinct from hypothesising or stating their preferences, in what livery/configuration 4472 is going to be finished ? Cannot see anything definitive on the NRM website.

My presumption would be that the BR double chimney/kylchap stays, and LNER apple green or similar for the livery?

Let me stress I dont want to reactivate the debate about our own preferences, historical accuracy, etc etc. We all have our own views!

Thanks

46118

 

Indeed, thanks Ralph. As you say, AC will be the one with the authoritative answer.

46118

 

I hear from a fairly reliable source within the NRM, speaking at a public meeting recently, that it will be "green"

 

Damn. I put a bet on that it would be pink. That's £10,000 down the drain!

 

Would that be green as in the colour or green as in environmentally friendly?

 

Oh dear...............please.......................NO

 

Have you sen how much black paint Ian Riley has in his stores? And he's moving out so needs to be rid of as much excess baggage as possible!

 

Well why didn't you say that in the first place instead of "I heard from a reliable source"?
Thanks very much but this forum is overflowing with rumours etc coming from "a friend of a mate's uncle".
The highly respected "source" was Anthony, he's posted the info.

 

I suppose I could have said "...the brother of a mate's wife", "...the son of some chap I sometimes bump into", "...a bloke who was in the pub 3 weeks ago", or even "...a friend of a mate's uncle" if you'd really have preferred it. The possibilities are endless really, but I consider Mr. Coulls giving a public talk on the NRM is a 'fairly reliable source within the NRM'. Which is why I said so.

Given that the NRM said years ago that it was going to be 'green', it's hardly a hold-the-front-page headline.

 

I think we can be confident that Anthony and his collegues at the NRM will already be devising a sensible strategy for 4472 when up and running. Clearly the locomotive needs to repay some of the millions spent on it, but I am sure they will resist the temptation to work her too hard. No "over the Settle & Carlisle with load thirteen" jobs, but perhaps a mix of static display at the NRM at popular times, visits to Heritage lines that are suitable and can be reached by rail transfer not road, and a mix of mainline working that is not too taxing, but still allows some stretching of legs, as such. The A3's were built for the East Coast mainline, so some mileage there will surely be in order.

46118

 

When Steve Davies was head of the NRM he had a mind to introduce a York - Shildon service that would allow a visit to both sites and the connecting train ride behind a suitable NRM engine. Whether his departure has seen the idea being dropped or simply suspended awaiting the availability of suitable locomotive(s) and the staff to undertake the necessary arrangements I do not know but it is an idea that is worth considering for 4472 once it becomes available.

 

It would be a good way of transfering engines between the two sites if you have visiting engines at the NRM that are passed for operation over NR. but with 4472 likily to be the only mainline registered steam loco for a while it would have to be an engine thats laying over between tours.

 

True, but the NRM does host other mainline registered engines sometimes, ie during the Scarborough Spa season.

I would have thought York - Shildon timed to give visitors a full day out by visiting both centres and some steam ( or Deltic...) haulage between the two museums would be very popular.

 

Why? Distance wise it's a perfect out and back in a day tour for a single loco. Having said that, where would the loco be turned? Has Shildon got a turntable?