Flying Scotsman

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Re: Latest news on Flying Scotsman

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Looks can be deceptive. The middle cylinder is located to the rear of the saddle and the outside cylinders. It is NOT in line with the outside cylinders.

 

A little knowledge is a wonderfull thing, (i think)

The Melter

 

Good point, I should have remembered that :redface:

 

Now it seems it has a "wonky" inside cylinder, up to about 1/2 inch out of line, which might incur a 4th strip down. (From latest SR).

 

And considerable expense apparently, per Steam Railway. I wonder if the NRM will have to consider giving up on this loco now, and static display the engine. SR say that the middle cylinder problem stems from a previous owner having the middle cylinder bored out when the A4 boiler and 250 lbs pressure came into being. (only allegedly so, per Steam Railway...)

 

If considerable expense is to be incurred would it not be better to leave the centre block as it is? Whoever bored out the middle cylinder will remain anonymous I'm sure but the loco DID run.

To stop the overhaul now and 'stuff and mount' would cause the NRM too much grief and I'm sure nobody would want that to happen after all the work that has gone in to returning her to the mainline. Sure they didn't do the homework on the loco but then again who would take an engine and compare it to the drawings to the nth degree to spot all that is/was wrong with her and for all we know some of the issue could date back to when she was built! Let's not lose sight of the fact that when she returns from overhaul she will be in pretty much ex-works condition and good for many years given the correct treatment.

Without knowing the exact details, if the re-bore is to blame due to the bore angle being incorrect could the issue not be resolved by inserting a liner with plenty of green on and machining back to the correct alignment or is the whole block out of alignment by the 1/2" quoted in SR?

Dave

 

It should be remembered that the chassis of this loco has been put together once with all the motion aligned correctly. This was prior to all the problems being found. The question that should be being asked is " What has changed since then that has caused the mis-alignment problem"

 

Re: Latest news on Flying Scotsman

Without clarification on what is 'allegedly' out of alignment (block alignment or the bore centreline angle) who knows. One big change was the re-alignment of the frames which were out of true. Was the centre block machined to take into account the the frame discrepancy in the long distant past?

I respect the NRM for the work they are doing but maybe it's time to sit tight and wait / hope for some more info from the NRM themselves.

Dave

 

I concur - there's been enough trouble caused by rumours, speculation and 'duff gen' already. Let's give those in charge the opportunity to investigate and report. Yes, it's a matter for public record, but hounding people for information before a full diagnosis has been done is counter-productive and can only delay the problem being identified and a solution being found.

Mark

 

Re: Latest news on Flying Scotsman

Hang on chaps! It's a bit early to be suggesting who *might* be responsible for a problem and what *might* be done to fix it, when we don't actually have too many details in the first place.

Richard

 

One would think that the NRM should put out an official Press release prior to a story like this appearing in magazines. It would kill any rumours etc stone dead.
Anyway, no more comment from me until something official is announced.

 

As Richard Dimbleby said:-

JESUS WEPT!!!!

 

std tank is right, lets wait for something official from the NRM before jumping to conclusions.

As of a moment ago there was nothing new on the NRM Press Office part of their website.

 

I note in two of the railway mags this month, there are two articles - one an editorial, one further into the magazine (but a full page spread), complaint that the new head of the NRM has not deigned to talk to the UK media but will talk to the Japanese media.

We then have people coming out and saying the NRM should make statements to prevent the rumour mill from turning.

All of this after a two year period in which the then new head of the NRM was repeatedly hounded, run down and almost literally run out of his job by several magazines whose only interest seemed to be trying to humiliate the NRM rather than actually constructively help a project which was at crisis point.

And people, railway journalists, genuinely wonder why the new head of the NRM has thus far said nothing to them?

If it were me, I wouldn't be meeting with any of them or saying anything about Scotsman until I had all of the facts and figures to hand, including the independent reviews which are ongoing.

Frankly the hypocrisy and abysmal behaviour of the railway press in general over the last few years gets my blood boiling. In Steam Railway this month, Wilcock goes all out on how much of a waste of money the gathering of the six A4s is, spends another 500 words with a sensational headline regarding the "nightmare overhaul" and all of the negative connotations with that...and then has the utter nerve, after all he has said about overhauling 4472, that the NRM should have spent the money for the A4 gathering on restoring Mallard to steam instead!

I mean, really? After everything he has said about the way the NRM has handled 4472's overhaul, he is now playing the "steam Mallard" card now. Convenient about turn of opinion and it's all rather shameless and despicable in my book.

As for the current news about the middle cylinder - it was definitely modified in terms of its lining and other details, when the locomotive's A4 boiler and its pressure was put up to 250lb. All three cylinders were re-lined at the same time. This information is not new, it is available for anyone and everyone to watch in the "Classic British Steam Trains" DVD box set, where the late Tony Marchington and Roland Kennington, chief engineer for 4472 at the time, go through the extent of the modifications made to 4472 as a "Super Pacific".

Whether or not this is the sole reason for 4472's current and reported middle cylinder problem is another matter. I do think Pete Waterman's very honest, and welcome commentary in the December issue of Steam Railway - which I note went unreported elsewhere - about his problems with the locomotive and his view of Marchington's ownership, perhaps betrays something of the state the locomotive has really been in for the last quarter of a century.

However I seem to recall that in the building of Tornado, there was a similar problem of alignment with the centre cylinder to its connecting rod, and certain changes were made to the connecting rod to enable it to fit without problems. If - asking this hypothetically - the problem in alignment is across the cylinders but in line with the connecting rod, could a reasonable repair or modification not be made to allow it to fit together? Assuming the problem is fitting and alignment of course.

 

Mmm, so there we are, no statement from the NRM as yet, but Nat-Pres posters start to offer engineering solutions.
Do please give the NRM time to comment, when they feel ready to do so.

 

I did say I was speaking hypothetically. I was curious as to how you would fix such a problem: whether or not it is as described on 4472 was another matter, and I made that explicit in my post above:

Not entirely fair to say I was offering an engineering solution, merely that I was curious of the implications of such a thing.

 

During the casting process, Tornado's centre cylinder "grew" half an inch longitudinally which was relatively easily fixed. A lateral inaccuracy would be a different ball game.

Foxy

 

Just hang on a minute, have you asked yourself where Steam Railway got this news from. It could only have come from someone within the NRM. Whether it was obtained via a third party, god knows. Nobody has to make a statement, just issue a press release.
By the way, the bores on most A4 cylinders are 1/2" smaller on diameter than an A3's, other than 60012, 20 and 31, which had a 17" dia inside cylinder. As Scotsman received a cylinder off Salmon Trout and the boiler pressure is back to the correct 220 psi, then it is safe to assume that all three cylinders have been rebored and are now the same correct bore for an A3. I hope so anyway. So it is nothing to do with the historical state of the cylinders.