Streamlined 46229

I think the NRM should forget the overhaul of 'Scotsman' for a bit and concentrate on returning (4)6229 to steam. It's daft to spend so much time and money streamlining the loco just to have it sat in the museum... In my view, 'Scotsman' has had its share of the limelight for 40 years, and this slot is pretty much being taken by 'Tornado' these days, so why spend yet more public money on it at the moment? My 7-year-old son can remember 'Scotsman' in steam, and my dad can't remember seeing a streamlined 'Duchess'! With 6233's ticket running out it's high time 'Duchess of Hamilton' was back on the main line!

 

I assume you will be stumping up the cash for this to happen then? Hmmm I didn't think so...
The money contributed for Scotsman's overhaul was contributed on exactly that basis - that it goes towards Scotsman. The NRM can't suddenly transfer the money to Hamilton, as they would lose the goodwill of the public (ie future financial support) and could possibly be sued!

It's all very well saying restore Hamilton, but where does the money come from? If you have a suitable stash burning a hole in your pocket, drop a message to Anthony Coulls and I'm sure he will put you in touch with the right people.


Keith

 

Hmm… :-k

I think you have completely misconstrued what I meant there! #-o

I thought it was quite plain that I was referring to the new appeal for future monies to complete ‘Scotsman’ after millions have already been spent. I was also not saying that ‘Scotsman’ should not be finished; indeed, I have already donated to the projects for both locomotives, contrary to your erroneous assumptions! I just feel that ‘Tornado’ is (rightly) taking the limelight for LNER Pacifics at the mo and it seems daft to be spending a large amount of cash to streamline 6229 without returning it to steam at the same time, and an LMS ‘Streamliner’ is well overdue. I was not criticising the NRM or efforts of others…

Anyway, as a relative ‘newbie’ to this forum (but not to steam locomotive restoration, as I have been involved in both restoration and overhaul works of several locomotives for the past 15 years) I had just wanted to add my support and didn’t expect unnecessary and unwarranted criticism…. Silly me! Anyway, thanks for putting me off posting again in future. :-#

 

You don't mention that anywhere in your post.

Your posting reads as though all work should be stopped on Scotsman so that Hamilton can be restored ("I think the NRM should forget the overhaul of 'Scotsman' for a bit and concentrate on returning (4)6229 to steam.").
The only thing I assumed was that you would not be donating the cost of Hamilton's overhaul. I did not assume anything else about your donations to any other project.

It was not "unnecessary and unwarranted criticism" - I just pointed out a few holes in your statements. It's entirely up to you if you don't wish to post again just because someone disagrees with you. Most people accept this as part of life. It's called debate...


Keith

 

Obviously too many syllables in my sentences… ](*,)

So here goes: 8-[

I do think that ‘Scotsman’ has swallowed a lot of public money to date, and a great deal more is required to complete it. I also think that perhaps it is time to divert the next fundraising initiative to something else… 46229 has been out of the limelight for some time and it would be nice to see it finished. Why put cladding on the boiler just to have to take it all off again to restore the loco? As to me stumping up all the cash myself, great idea if I had it. Just remind me which single individual has paid for ‘Scotsman’s’ entire overhaul at the NRM to date and I will do the same for 6229… I’m all for debate, let’s just have less nitpicking! Life’s too short! My point being that there is a limited amount of public money available for loco restorations, and if the NRM can raise it for ‘Scotsman’ they could do it instead for 6229 and put ‘Scotsman’ on the back burner for 12 months. After all, we’ve been without a streamlined ‘Duchess’ on the main line for 60 years. Wouldn’t it be nice to see?

Does anyone out there support this view? [-o<

 

Scotsman has the benefit of national exposure, which is always going to help the flow of money.

I've no idea how much would be needed to overhaul the Duchess, but can anyone confidently say that 'the money' could be raised within 12 months? Then there's the job of doing the work itself, which would take how long? So I think Scotsman would end up being on the back burner for rather longer than 12 months, which is not ideal, considering that the NRM has just relaunched an appeal for it. Not a good PR move. Neither is downing tools mid overhaul, so that you can go galavanting off with another project. The whole thing would just smack of incompetence and indecision really.

I would say the best time to launch an appeal for the Duchess would be in the wake of Scotsman's return to steam, but as you point out, that would still mean taking the engine to pieces just after you'd spent £100k making it look pretty (or not, depending on your point of view). So I think the best thing all round is to just wait, and be patient. It'll certainly get a lot more exposure when it comes out this year.

 

Now that's debate! =D>

I would never use the word 'incompetent' to describe the work of the NRM, whether 'Scotsman' is finished or not! And don't get me wrong, I think NRM are doing the right thing in going the 'whole hog' with 4472's restoration.

I do think it is a shame that 46229 was unable to make sufficient money to cover the costs of the necessary 10-year heavy overhaul. I know many locos have suffered this problem in preservation, but then many main line locos have been able to do so.

I suppose I just can't wait for the sight of a streamlined 6229 on the main line... maybe even one day recreating the image of 'Coronation' (still masquerading as 6229) in blue? [-o<

 

I may be wrong, but wasn't the idea of re-streamlining the Duchess to put her on display next to Mallard to show the two different styles of 1930's streamlining and then at some unspecified date in the future to return her to the mainline in all her glory?
The problem is the NRM doesn't have a bottomless pit of money and we the public are going to have to put pressure on either the NRM or one of the railway mags to start an appeal to overhaul her and then put our hands in our pockets to pay for it.
I don't know how much the overhaul would cost, at least £500,000 at a guess, so if an appeal is to be launched shouldn't it coincide with her being unveiled to the public next month? After all it would be nice to have the money in hand so that work could start as soon as the NRM saw fit.

 

Oh I don't know, in my mind no-one is infallible. But the point was more to do with how the public would perceive the change in direction.

Personally I'm of the opinion that the fewer large scale appeals on the go at the same time, the better. Obviously not everyone thinks that - you've only got to look at my own place for instance.

What I wouldn't mind seeing though is 6000 cosmetically done up back to 1927 spec, so at least you could see what it looked like when it was in the US. Would cost a bit less than £100k as well...

 

Oh I don't know, in my mind no-one is infallible. But the point was more to do with how the public would perceive the change in direction.

Personally I'm of the opinion that the fewer large scale appeals on the go at the same time, the better. Obviously not everyone thinks that - you've only got to look at my own place for instance.

What I wouldn't mind seeing though is 6000 cosmetically done up back to 1927 spec, so at least you could see what it looked like when it was in the US. Would cost a bit less than £100k as well...[/quote:3cgj3o2k]

The 6000 idea would be different - plus if something happened with KGV it may encourage a clamour for her to be restored. What we talking - off the top of my head.

Revert to single chimney
Change to inside cylinder valve covers.
Lose mechanical lubricator/speedo.
Not sure where she is with superheat,
Bogie springing arrangement, two options - as she left UK, or after amended?
Were they built with tapered buffers?
Get some bint to pose as Britannia on the running plate and jobs a good un...

 

I know a bint that would be prepared to do the biz. (For a fee, of course!)

 

Yeah, that's pretty much the idea. As far as the superheater's concerned, you've only got to blank off the lube pipe through the smokebox, and change the cover for a smaller one. Personally I'd leave the bogie as it is - too much faffing about for me. Oh and maybe change the cab roof for a plain one. You're never going to get a 100% accurate recreation, but then few restorations are.

What with the garter crest on the tender and all the bull, the result would look superb, and more to the point would provide a direct link with the most significant event from the engine's past, as well as illustrate the world status of Britain's rail industry at that time.

You see, now we're talking.

 

The 6000 idea would be different - plus if something happened with KGV it may encourage a clamour for her to be restored. What we talking - off the top of my head.

Revert to single chimney
Change to inside cylinder valve covers.
Lose mechanical lubricator/speedo.
Not sure where she is with superheat,
Bogie springing arrangement, two options - as she left UK, or after amended?
Were they built with tapered buffers?
Get some bint to pose as Britannia on the running plate and jobs a good un...[/quote:3sii8124]

I thought the bogie springing was changed as an emergancy modification in responce to an accident and wasn't there also some extra plates rivetted following cracking? Just like the discussion over 6100s smoke deflectors we must remember some modifications were done for safety rather than performance.

Don't forget KGV also carried a Westinghouse Pump in the States!

 

Least you wouldn't have to worry about hiding it!

 

Rest assured that any bogie comments were made with the tongue firmly in cheek, I believe it was a derailment at Midgham? A telegraph was sent to Stanier to say that he shouldn't run KGV until the problem was solved. Can you imagine just how much pressure the drawing office at Swindon must have been under to solve this problem quickly to save the PR for the GWR of having the pride of the fleet in USA but being unable to run it due to safety reasons.

On a separate note, what is the livery position with 6023 - is she running blue for the whole ticket or would there be scope for original livery at some point - although as one of the second batch no idea what 'original' would have been?

 

Could we bring this back on topic please? Maybe set up a separate thread for "King" colour schemes.

Richard

 

Hi does anyone have a list of which locos were paint red and which locos were painted blue. It would be great to see 46229 painted in blue at some point in the future.


Thanks

 

I think off the top of my head the first five were blue the rest red,.

 

the first 5, which were painted caledonian blue, were Coronation, Queen Elizabeth, Queen Mary, Princess Alice and Princess Alexandria. however, when hamilton swapped its plates and number with coronation, neither were repainted. so for a period there was a red 'coronation' and a blue 'hamilton'. so there is technically a precedent for having a blue hamilton. it was also painted in wartime black in 1944 so there's a precedent for that as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Prince ... f_Hamilton

 

The NRM page says that the exhibition of Hamilton in streamlined guise is from May 20th 2009 to 31st December 2010. See: http://www.nrm.org.uk/events/showevent.asp?eventID=189 I wonder what is going to happen then.... :-k