Erebus & Terror

Gents, I have been following this search for a few years, hoping they find these infamous shipwrecks.
It's the engines said to be made from a Bury 2-2-0 and a Planet type 0-4-0 heres the news link. Cold arctic waters may conserve against the worms, but I don't think they'll be steamable! See Parks Canada:
http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/culture/franklin/index.aspx

 

Yes, it would be very interesting if the old locos in the wrecks of HMS 'Erebus' and 'Terror' could be recovered, but recent research has shown that they were not a Bury 2-2-0 and a Planet-type 0-4-0, but two 2-2-2s from the London and Croydon Railway, 'Archimedes' and 'Croydon', built by Rennie in 1838/9.

Harry Jack.

 

Thank you, started me off reading an interesting trail of websites.

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See Peter Carney's website http://erebusandterrorfiles.blogspot.com/ under the year 2010 for his thorough piece of research into the identity of the two locos.

There has been so much in print claiming that one of them was from the London & Birmingham Railway (Bury-type No 27, built by Rothwell of Bolton, or possibly one of Tayleur's ballast engines) in HMS Terror, and that the other in HMS Erebus was from the London & Greenwich Railway: No 4 Twells, built by Marshall of Tipton. So it is good to see these legends convincingly overturned, with the possibility that the remains of two locos by the more obscure firm of G. & J. Rennie might one day be recovered.

 

I did note from Peter Carney's website that he suggests that only the boilers, cylinders, crank axle and connecting rods are likely to have been retained (even the valve gear being replaced by a link motion) which might still therefore leave doubt as to their origin even if found.

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Yes, if the locos are ever recovered various bits will be missing or found to have been altered, but whatever remains should at least finally get rid of the Bury-type and Planet-type stories. These stories have appeared in so many books and articles by reliable authors that it will probably take solid material evidence to finally kill them off. And perhaps there may be enough surviving to identify them as Rennie designs. Or...?

But - if they are ever seen again, the remains will be fascinating to anyone with an interest in locomotive history.

 

DL Bradley notes (I'm sure that Peter Carney is aware) that Archimedes and Croydon were sold by the SER in April 1845, and were partly dismantled at that time, which at least agrees with what that website suggests. Though it is interesting that he also suggests that they were somewhat dud locos, costing much more to maintain than others of the same vintage and having spent considerable time out of service. I suspect the SER were glad to be shot of them!

Tom

 

Yes, Tom -

Peter Carney has gone even further into the details of the engines than even the estimable Donald Bradley was able to do. His research in his blogs of 2010 and 2011 is truly amazing (to me) and his reconstruction drawing of one of the locos as fitted in the ship is convincing.

My interest in this subject was mostly because of the story that a London & Birmingham loco had been used in HMS Terror - originally suggested by a comment in a letter from a ship's officer that the engine had previously run faster "on the Birmingham line". This letter was discovered by Ted Craven, another very thorough locomotive historian, and led to a great deal of speculation, but it seems the officer was merely being fanciful in an amusing letter to his sister-in-law.

While I am glad to see the London & Birmingham story debunked, it's a bit disappointing to know that we aren't going to see one of Edward Bury's 2-2-0s brought back from under the ice.

Harry.

 

Gents, I have stumbled upon & read an old article on these from about 1920; it was recognised to be the inspiration for the 'Ironclads; Peter's super research concurs with the engine details, though this article failed to mention they were ex locos. Even a picture, did they have outside photos then or maybe later effort?

 

"Even a picture, did they have outside photos then ...?"

Photography dates from 1839, but the earliest photo of a railway subject that I know is of Linlithgow Station, definitely taken in 1843-5. There is at least one taken of a loco in the USA allegedly dated 1850; the earliest surviving British effort seems to be of South Eastern Railway No 136 Folkstone (sic), a 4-2-0 dummy-crankshaft Crampton, taken at the Crystal Palace between March and October, 1851.

Other railway photos have appeared in print with (confidently attributed) earlier dates: those I've seen so far are very doubtful or obviously dated too early.

 

I'd have to look up in Bradley to see if there is an illustration of Archimedes / Croydon or not. Generally in those volumes, there are line drawings of classes for which no photo exists, but they are generally "modern" drawings, i.e. reconstructions based on known dimensions and any known stylistic quirks from particular manufacturers or other descriptive material, so are probably best described as illustrative rather than offering guaranteed fidelity. In any case, locomotives nominally within the same class could vary a bit between individual examples.

Interesting that the earliest loco photo from this country is that SER Crampton. I find it drily amusing that the earliest known portrait of a steam locomotive from the country that bought you the steam locomotive was such a dud!

Tom

 

Is this a source Peter Carney is aware of? It might be worth letting him know or at least posting the publication details here.

 

There is a photo of Chippenham engine shed in Part 2 of the RCTS Locomotives of the GWR suggested to date from the 1840s, but that dating seems to be based on the assumption that Polar Star received its later saddle tank at the same time as it was lengthened before the end of 1849.

 

Interestingly Peter Carney comments that he would not expect sea water ever to have been used in these boilers after recording that Maudslay had patented an apparatus for continuously changing the salt water in boilers.

At that date sea water would almost certainly have been used. If however they were only for occasional use the boiler could probably just have been blown down and re-filled as necessary when the salinity became too high rather than fitting any more complicated apparatus.

 

Been reading more of Peter Carney's site and in a later page titled refrigerators he realises they did use seawater in the boilers

 

Right, who is going to be first onto FaceBook to set up the Archimedes and Croydon restoration society?

Tom

 

so am i right to understand the locomotives were modified then mounted inside the ships hull toprovide propulsion ?

 

Yes, the boilers & engines used appear to be from locomotives according to Peter Carney's research linked above. See 2010 and 2011 blog entries. He also says brine pumps and refrigerators were provided to enable the use of sea water in the boilers.

 

Might be a few more years yet before we find out.

They haven't been inside HMS investigator, that was found in 2010 (as part of the same search), and viewed only from outside, similar water depth.. 11 meters (36ft).

The photos of the outside and the stunning level of preservation of the timbers is remarkable.