Flying Scotsman

Personally I agree with much that 'bean counter' and 'TA' have said above. For the most part 'the general public' don't know which livery the engine should be in for any one of its possible conditions. They know about 'Flying Scotsman' in the sense that it exists and is famous for being famous but that is it.

It must surely be the case that it will be the railway enthusiast who will provide the income for future overhauls. I know that there is a growing market in non-enthusiast mainline excursions, and this is a welcome development, but surely this is a small part of the total income required for the engines next overhaul.

Personally I would want 'Flying Scotsman' to be in single chimney condition because that offers the greatest chance of the three liveries that are open, ie LNER green or BR green and BR blue. Any of these liveries could be matched with coaching stock, but with the caveat that only the NYMR and SVR has a working set of teak stock for the LNER green. If the engine is to go out on the main line then either of the BR liveries would match the available stock, but again there are some pretty horrendous, non prototypical, liveries for mainline coaches out there.

Regards

 

Please get your facts straight. The A1 Trust are going to paint Tornado in Brunswick green. There has been no vote/etc with covenators except for a model of Tornado several years back which people voted on putting in BR green. BR Apple Green is a bright and stunning livery when clean, which has done much to up her profile over the last two years.

Brunswick Green liveries to wear has been brought forward, and due to the maintenance I would have thought it a certainty that they'll extend the period of wearing it accordingly. They made no promises to anyone, other than to "build and operate a Peppercorn A1" on the mainline.

Scotsman will reappear in LNER livery, and then be repainted into BR green at some point. That's always been the stance since the overhaul at the NRM was started.

Can we finish up this livery debate with the usual "agree to disagree" as it'll simply go nowhere. Anthony Coulls has already explained on here that they do not have a single chimney, or casting for one, so until one is found/made she will remain as a double chimney locomotive. Livery depends on the general public, not enthusiasts, although I appreciate the amount SR raised for the SoS appeal is great. I don't doubt the NRM to repaint her - Steve Davies has said before in jest he'd like to do LNER wartime livery so I don't think it's a question of not doing it, just when to do so.

Letting the engine out onto the mainline to get her profile upped and back in the public eye, as an apple green Scotsman, and then a repaint into BR green makes sense. And, "proof of the pudding" - lo and behold that it is the same thing the A1 Trust are doing.

 

well said.

 

True, but they didnt have the equipment or money to fit vacuum braking to her either - one magazine appeal later and Robert is your father's brother. Quite why a similar approach cant even be attempted to sort out the chimney situation simply baffles me; it wont turn her into a cripple barely able to move her own weight around and perhaps if anything might help guard againt the mechanical wear she's suffered from before after being asked to do too much too often.

For the record, if the loco was privately owned like 6100 i would barely have an opinion - but this is the NRM, who i usually support 100%, but im sure they wouldnt let anyone else restoring one of their loco's even consider such a thing, and thats a standard they should adhere to themselves as well.

Chris

 

Do you know what is involved in changing a loco from a single chimney to a double chimney or vice versa?

 

Not just a case of sticking another chimney on.....

 

. Quite why a similar approach cant even be attempted to sort out the chimney situation simply baffles me; it wont turn her into a cripple barely able to move her own weight around and perhaps if anything might help guard againt the mechanical wear she's suffered from before after being asked to do too much too often.



Perhaps everybody should read Top Shed by P.N.Townsend chapter 11 living with the pacific will explain all.

 

The change from double to single chimney was done in 1963, when the loco was first preserved. And from single to double in 1990something, when the 1963 casting was worn out. So work of this kind is quite feasible during an overhaul. Anthony Coulls also made the suggestion of a Lempor exhaust, an alternative method of improving the draughting performance of the loco whilst maintaining the single chimney profile. I expect all these things will happen eventually.

 

I didnt suggest it would be simple, but this overhaul has already involved a complete change of boiler, straightening the frames, sorting out the misaligned driving wheels and changing the braking system. Changing the chimney, despite all the associated work that goes with it, doesnt seem overly ambitious in comparison - that said, if they cant afford it and a public appeal failed to raise the neccesary funds, then fair enough... but an attempt should at least be made IMO.

Chris

 

I imagine the NRM does not wish to launch any new appeals or change the overhaul spec. again at this stage. They just want to finish the job and another appeal now would test the faith of the public who have already contributed to recent appeals and seen the delays to the overhaul (for the reasons we all know). However after a year or two in service it will be time for a repaint and other work, no doubt, and then many things are surely possible.
:deadhorse:

 

A little bit of extra work maybe but aren't the 6023 boys about to achieve this.....oh yes, yes they are!

 

6023 is ex Barry. It has received a complete brand new smokebox. Now, what would be required to convert it to double chimney arrangement? Answer that question, because people are going on about the same thing in reverse about Scotsman.

 

Why be baffled? If you are going to use a steam locomotive on the mainline it has to be capable of delivering the most reliable performance. For an A3 the double Kylchap exhaust represents an extra 500hp and more reliable steaming capacity to help cover for poor fuel quality and/or less than wonderful firing. The idea of a redesign of the front end to allow for single chimney appearance without the loss of these advantages was aired some time ago. So, wait and see.

As for overloading, this engine was built for 600 ton trains and thanks to many years of improvement is a better design now than it was then. It has worked for a period whilst not in the best of condition and paid the price for this but we will never get to see what this design is really capable of on the route it was designed for. Might get some good tasters though. Just like we get with lots of preserved engines. Should be grateful too.

 

:deadhorse:I just can't believe how many times this argument has gone around in circles on this thread. Surely there absolutely nothing else left to say about the whole chimney/deflector/paint debate?

Why not just put it to a poll and wrap it up? :deadhorse::deadhorse:

 

Couldn't agree more, Sheff.

 

A poll would settle nothing. If people want something they should offer NRM the money needed to do it.

 

Good idea - anyone care to comment on the performance of a Lempor, within the original single-chimney profile, compared to the double Kylchap?

 

Yes it would. It would succinctly capture the majority view of this forum, and prove whether there is actually any real ground swell of opinion contrary to the path that the NRM are currently following. It would certainly take a lot of time and patience to glean that from the 26 pages and counting that we have here.

If this proves to be the case then, and only then, might there be a case for talking to the NRM about the possibility of raising funds for a further work.

 

Nice one Sheff for setting up the poll!

have already voted & for the record - I dont care - I for one just want to see her back on the mainline in what ever guise.