Flying Scotsman

I'm glad I have a day in my alternative world tomorrow. No conspiracy theories in the world of steam rollers.

 

Now then about Clyde, last seen travelling south from the north heading in the direction of the Couls residence in the custody of a younger guy and his lady friend, ( ah well enough said)

Have a good day tomorrow Anthony, i am looking forward to playing little green engines very soon too.
The Melter

 

Surely, after the amount of money spent they HAVE to steam her. Otherwise it calls into question the whole structure of the nrm and it's finances..

Maybe I'm being a bit simplistic here, but there are a great many engines running today that were basically shells (rusty wrecks) of their former selves, yet the impressive skills of the preservation movement put them on the line, reliably running trains.

I fully realise Scotsman has had a very hard life, but can it really be that hard to assess what's wrong, how to fix it and just get on with it?

There are a great many workshops and owners who get it right year after year with their locos - someone at the nrm needs to swallow their pride and get on the blower and say 'we're up to our neck in it with 4472, can you give us a hand?'

The A1 boys built a brand new loco, and lets face it did a damn fine job - if I was project managing the 4472 nightmare their engineers would be one number one call for some advice...

Again, maybe I'm simplifying this too much, but even if the engineering and costs are challenging, someone needs to grab 4472 by the horns and sort it out before the nrm is made to look totally useless.

Shipping over and repainting A4's is one thing, but spending £1 million on a loco and still not getting it to simmer is just a bit silly. Having said that I'm sure the nrm don't own an A4 that steams either

Rant over, I'll go back to hiding under my stone

 

Ah, but on here it's a damn sight safer. eep: :madgrin:

 

I would be very surprised if there is not an official announcement. In fact I am certain there will be otherwise David Wilcock will be back on the case. Personally I am being patient and taking the view that the statement will be made when it is made and not before.

It might have gone un-noticed by many but in the last couple of weeks the NRM has had to make two equally difficult official announcements. Firstly they had to announce that they were putting out to tender their mainline steam and diesel operations. Secondly they had to announce that 'City of Truro' would steam no more. Thus, announcing that 'Flying Scotsman' will become a static museum piece, if that is what is to happen, should not be difficult.

 

Unlike Truro and the mainline ops it would be very difficult for the NRM, having spent so much time and money on Flying Scotsman, if they had to announce it had all been for nothing. For that reason alone I am sure they will be very determined to finish the job and start to claw back their credibility.

 

*deleted*

 

Irrespective of what has happened since 4472 was "saved for the nation", if it had in fact been sold to a foreign buyer, repaired to a price rather than an exacting specification and run until it broke, the NRM would have been beaten to within an inch of its life by the "enthusiast community" for not stepping in: much as it has been by the circumstances to date. As a "state institution", the NRM is tarred with a stereotypical Civil Service brush and references to stereotypical "bean counters". Having worked in both a Government department and in an accounts team while still retailning the capacity for objective thought, I find such references a bit all encompassing.

The fact is that when the NRM (its custodians on behalf of the nation, rather than its owners) bought 4472, they bought the Flying Scotsman brand, arguably of greater monetary worth than the loco, irrespective of its mechanical condition. This is not the place to discuss the rights and wrongs of this, but any brand is worth only what the punters are prepared to pay for it. I believe that any exploitation of that brand under NRM auspices will safeguard the interests of the loco, rather than merely being a means to deliver private profit. The preparedness to persevere on the basis of mechanical integrity, rather than accepting second best and covering it up is commendable and illustrates that point. The NRM could have launched it faults and all, perhaps nursing it along for a while, but it did the right thing by the engine, set about rectifying the issues found, commissioned an independent report and took the criticism on the chin.

When Alan Pegler purchased 4472 in 1963 it was his stated intention that when it became uneconomic to retain it in working order, it would be given to what has become the NRM. Locomotive restoration has moved on a lot since then and more or less anything can be achieved with sufficient monetary input. The NRM is responsible for its own budget rather than Central Government. The entire Flying Scotsman bill is insignificant in terms of what pours down MOD and NHS financial drains, a couple of banker's bonusses would cover it.

Whether 4472 ever raises steam again (and I believe that it will) is less important than the fact that it is safe and dry in the UK and in good hands. The work that has been done will stay done and is not wasted. Patience is the order of the day and please, knock off the speculation: this is getting too much like the Galatea thread!

David

 

The new Director of NRM is a HM Treasury man. He is there to stabilise the museum's finances, nothing more. Since the engine has burned its way through almost the entire national stock of enthusiast multi-millionaires he has just two choices:

1. Re-assemble it, put it in the exhibition space Yorkshire Forward paid for, and announce that the work to date stands the engine in good stead for a possible return to steam for her centenary in 2023. Cost +/- £20,000.

2. Pay out ten times that at least to get it certified, for 7 years on the main line with no guarantees it will make money or not experience some additional as yet unidentified calamity that will cost another fortune to put right.

Do not imagine for one moment that he will worry about the fall-out from taking the safe option. See TSR-2, Nimrod, etc. If pushed he has someone to blame - the previous Director. Perhaps the only debate remaining is whether it goes on display in cheap and nasty black or someone unbelts for lined green - which will be another £5000.

 

I'm not convinced. In Treasury terms the costs of Flying Scotsman's overhaul and future operation really is small beer compared to the likes of Nimrod and TSR-2.

 

Well the £1m + spent on the present overhaul has gone somewhere so profits are being made somewhere.

 

I personally think we need to get behind the NRM, give them back the confidence they are being robbed of by the naysayers, and get 4472 back on the rails of Britain where she belongs

 

I couldnt agree with that more! Yes this has not been the glorified perfect sinaerio for the engine and NRM, but lets continue to support them now and get this finished. No doubt all those complaining will be saying how wonderful it is to get it back when the job is finished!

 

I wonder where?

 

I'm intrigued to know where you get the numbers from.

 

if you mean the little numbers, putting a middle cylinder back, reassembling the motion, putting the gubbins back in the smokebox, putting it on display with nice explanatory panels, train the explainers, and have a press launch, all with paid staff, it will easily cost that and if anyone can do it for less than £20k, I am sure the museum will be pleased to hear from them. The painting and lining costs for a Class 7 to exhibition standard are an industry standard, give or take a bit.

if you mean the big number, you will either have to trust me or dismiss it, but it is a good if slightly conservative one. And remember this decision comes when the museum has to find another £100,000 a year to absorb the statutory designation responsibilities of the Railway Heritage Committee and in 2014 fund the repatriation of two A4s back to North America - or buy them.

There are still people in and around the museum pressing for it to steam, but they face an uphill battle against unflinching financial logic from a man put there with the sole remit of sorting out the money.

 

Exactly! Once 4472 is running again her previous problems will soon be forgotten by just about everyone except a few bean & rivet-counters, who are no doubt members of this forum.

 

An interesting take; we'll soon see whose crystal ball is clearer, I suspect?

I'm not sure which one's correct, myself: I will note that governments are often reluctant to admit to the public that they've poured money down a rathole, so they tend to press to completion once started on something (for some great examples of this in action, see Nevil Shute's excellent history of the R-101 fiasco, in his fascinating autobiograhy, "Slide Rule").

Noel