Flying Scotsman

Yes, but that is a very fleeting kind of exposure, and also one that tends to be actively discouraged, whereas a visit to a heritage line is actively promoted.

You'd be amazed just how many people simply want to touch the loco - it's a very visceral thing. There is a very strong desire from a lot of people just to have that connection - you don't have to be going fast to do that. For many people, "I've seen Flying Scotsman" is the thing, the fact that it is only doing 25mph scarcely registers. As enthusiasts we might get snooty about mainline locos on heritage lines, and have phrases like "caged tigers" and the like, but a heritage line can deliver public exposure like nothing else.

Tom

 

Mainline running without a doubt

 

I agree, and for many people they don't have to travel to a designated preserved railway to view her.
From experience, whenever she passed through Chester le Street, the platforms would be packed, maybe 200 people total.
Add that up for the duration of a journey, and that is a big number, and how many that see her, think, i would like to do that.???
It is all about taking the "peoples engine", to the masses, something the NRM is ignoring, with a lack of mainline running.

 

Who says that the NRM is ignoring it, except you?

 

The date of the last mainline run was????
It is pretty obvious that no TOC fancies working with Northern Steam, hence she is dragged from Preserved line to Preserved line instead.
Something does not add up, the obvious conclusion is the tender is with a company that does not feel able to provide mainline running.
If not the NRM would insist on mainline running???

 

I believe the tender did insist on mainline running, and something has gone awry with Northern Steam's ability to deliver that. Given that NRM haven't moved to cancel the contract, I tend to assume that the drafting of the contract means that Northern Steam have some leeway; whether NRM have the energy or budget to enforce this may also be a question

 

That is not too simple but delivering it seems to be anything but. It would be so interesting to have been a fly on the wall at the time the tender was created and then awarded. I wonder what conversations were had about what they wanted and who the TOC would likely be.

Very naive question--- do you need to spend the same amount of public money to provide a loco which passes the FTR test on a main line as on a preserved line?

 

Without a doubt, the best of all worlds, depends if it can have a good list of available support staff.

 

You almost get the feeling a cartel, are pushing NS into a siding, and lookin for them to fail????
As they are the new boys.

 

If the engine moves to and from a heritage line by rail it will have to have an FTR for each movement, if it moves by road it’s a lot more money to a haulier. The main beneficiaries will be the heritage lines with the extra revenue created by its presence. We were promised maximum public exposure and that’s not what is happening

 

I meant ==== if you were tendering for a ten year overhaul, would you expect to pay the same tender price for a specification to run 100 miles a day at 25mph on preserved lines as 200 miles a day at up to 75 mph on the main line?

 

It's a hard calculation to do, but I don't think that inherently an overhaul for operation on a heritage line is significantly cheaper than doing so for the mainline, with the one proviso that if you genuinely aimed for heritage line only, you don't have to worry about installing and certifying any of the electronic kit (OTMR, TPWS etc) (even if you plan to move it between lines via the mainline - it can be towed without the kit).

If you take a worn out loco and strip off the cab and cladding, lift the boiler, take down the motion, drop the wheel sets and so on (and then reverse all that at the end) you have already spent a considerable amount of labour before you even touch anything, and there is no difference between heritage and mainline there. Once you start refurbishing each part, there are no difference in standards, and a lot of the cost is in labour. So I can't see that overhauling a loco for the mainline is going to be significantly different than doing it to the same quality for heritage line running.

The real deciding factor then becomes mileage, and how much of that is remunerative. A heritage loco on a larger line could probably run somewhere in the region of 60 - 70,000 miles between main overhauls (maybe with a couple of intermediate p&v inspections and perhaps an intermediate overhaul in that time) so you aim for an annual mileage that will achieve that in roughly ten years - 100 days in traffic at 60 miles per day would do it. Mainline locos seem to spend a lot of time running unremuneratively getting to / from the tours they run - but that non-remunerative running still leads to mileage-based wear and tear. Even ignoring that - if you had mainline loco aiming to do 70,000 miles in 7 years (rather than 10) then it needs to do 10,000 miles per year. That is 40 * 250 mile day, and I doubt many mainline locos are doing that, at least not remuneratively.

It would be interesting to see some figures for days of operation and mileage of mainline locos. But the bottom line is you probably need to find upwards of £500k per overhaul regardless, and on the mainline you have fewer paying days in which to make that money.

Tom

 

I think you can only assume that it isn’t intended to overhaul her again.
The civil service doesn’t make any common sense decisions.

 

Whenever the last mainline run was it was with someone who had access to mainline stock and a TOC with a steam case.
Whatever the rights and wrongs as we discussed up thread without access to mainline stock and or a TOC with steam operation approval able to provide crews it will not be going anywhere on the mainline.

 

Which does beg the question, why after a tendering process did they opt for the current solution??

 

Quite a good question, although I can look at a number of decisions my company made during my Procurement career, a few against our advice, and say why on earth did we do that? Including one where we ended up having to provide someone to run the company at the supplier until our kit was delivered.

 

All this griping about it's non appearance on main line tours - was it not stated earlier this year 2025 would predominantly be one for heritage line visits and that main line outings would resume next year?

 

I don't have anything official, but by my count, 34067 Tangmere did roughly 8500 miles last year, across 34 trips plus ECS moves.

 

Does Northern steam have sufficient support staff? and do they hold NR PTS? My biggest concern is that on the face of it, they are completely unknown, and whilst some may have the experience, clearly the main TOC's don't think they do, Part of me wonders did Northern steam get caught out, promissing much, but unable to deliver fully? time will tell, worse case scenario,will see FS returned to the NRM, at the end of its ticket in need of an full overhaul, and the engine then being retired, and not being overhauled. Because the NRM,can't find anyone willing to take the engine on.