INTRIGUING TURKISH DELIGHTS

23E · 30 nov 2010

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std tank · 30 nov 2010

23E zei: ↑

The ‘update’ article in ‘Heritage Railway’ Issue 144, reporting on the progress in repatriating the two ex-Turkish Railways’ Stanier 8F 2-8-0s, raised an intriguing point in that the photo of one of the locos clearly displayed what appeared to be a vacuum-ejector and exhaust pipe on what was essentially an air-braked locomotive. The captioning of the picture clearly invited comment, to which Mr Allan Condie has now responded.

The history of the matter is that, in 1943, as WD Nos 552/4, the 1942-built TCDD Nos 45169/70 - that had previously been on-loan to the LMSR - were sent to Turkey in lieu of the 3 engines (WD Nos 343-5) lost at sea when the 'SS Jessmore' was involved in a collision in the Atlantic with another ship in its convoy on 19th February 1941.

Mr Condie reminds us that the reason for the vacuum ejector pipe on TCDD No 45170 was that it was one of the 'conversions' to right-hand drive. As depicted on No 45166, those built specifically for Turkey had the Westinghouse air-compressors mounted on the right-hand side of the smoke-box, two air-tanks on the left-hand running plate and, of course, no ejector pipe.

In the picture in the article, No 45170 is clearly displayed showing the reverse of that arrangement. It is, nevertheless, curious to note that the arguably totally superfluous vacuum equipment survived successive visits to works of the engine for overhaul.

Perchance somebody already knew that it would, one day, be returning ‘home’!

Incidentally, the latest information received from dockside contacts in Izmir appears to suggest that the 8Fs will be docking in the UK on Christmas Eve. Clearly, an extremely well-timed Christmas present for those involved!

Due to the holiday shut-down, however, it may well be another 7 days before unloading commences.
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45169 and 45170 did not run on the LMS and they were never allocated an LMS number. As I have stated previously in another thread you cannot just convert an 8F from LH to RH drive because of specific frame differences to accomodate the reverser. This difference is highly visible on the frames of 48518. I look forward to seeing the frames of 45170 when it arrives in Britain. In all probability 45170 was dual braked, similar to quite a few of the WD locos that were sent abroard.

5E Alsager · 1 dec 2010

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std tank · 1 dec 2010

5E Alsager zei: ↑

Unfortunately I do not possess a copy of “Heavy goods engines of the War Department, Part 2 The Stanier 8F 2-8-0” - the definitive work by J.W.P. Rowledge, which, surely, must contain much detail on the matter, so whether WD Nos 552/4 were, or were not, dual-braked from the outset currently remains open to conjecture.

Furthermore, I might well agree that Allan Condie does appear to be incorrect in his assumption that 45170 was one of what he describes as 'conversions to right-hand drive' and, although reversing of main frame components would not be totally out of the question, given the complexity of such a task, this would, I feel, have been a most unlikely scenario. Once again, if such had occurred (to any 8Fs whatsoever), I suspect that JWP Rowledge will have mentioned something about it in his book. Doubtless some reader will not be long in providing that answer!

We do know that some newly-built WD-order engines (of various types) were stored around Britain until such time as they were required abroad, but I personally have never seen anything in print that confirms the facts regarding their Stanier 8F contingent. Notwithstanding such paucity in information, it does remain a fact that WD Nos 552/4 were dispatched from the NBL works in Glasgow in 1942, but only arrived on Turkish soil in 1943, so they must have been somewhere in the intervening period – even if that was a matter of only a few months.

It would, therefore, appear to follow that – with vacuum braking already in situ as an option – as with other heavy freight locos specifically ordered by the British Government, dual-braked locos were more than likely to have operated upon home soil, and in those countries influenced by British practice, before being sent on elsewhere.

I think that “23E” had already made it perfectly clear, in one of the HR articles, that neither was allocated an LMSR number (unlike Toddington’s LMS 8274 / WD 348 / TCDD 45160), but I would suggest that most followers of this thread really would appreciate your elaborating upon the statement made that they really did never run on the LMS!
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With regard to the two locos never having run on the LMS can I first refer you to the top of page 17 of LMS Locomotive Profiles No 8 The Stanier 2-8-0s. The numbers of the locos of that batch which ran on the LMS are given. Secondly can I refer you to page 74 of the book Stanier 8Fs at Work. With Turkey being a neutral country the locos where dispatched from Britain as a kit of parts, to maintain secrecy. They were then rebuilt at Sivas workshops in Turkey under the supervision of LMS loco engineer R.G. Jarvis. You are not going to build a loco, run it and then totally break it down to component parts are you!! Obviously, as you say, J.W.P. Rowledge's book is the definitive work on the history of the locos. Like yourself, I have not got a copy.

std tank · 3 dec 2010

I have managed to purchase a copy of J.W.P. Rowledge's book. I was wrong about 552 and 554 not running on the LMS They were allocated to Carlisle Kingmoor for a few months before being put into store at Derby, prior to being shipped to Turkey. It would appear that both locos were first built, steamed and tested at North British Works then stripped down to component parts for shipment to Turkey. This was cancelled and the locos were to go to Egypt instead. So they were rebuilt, but the shipment to Egypt was cancelled and they were loaned to the LMS. Other locos from N.B. contract L937 were treated similarly, but ended up being taken into LMS ownership.
One interesting thing is that 554/ 45170 received tender No 9433. This was recovered from SS Pentridge Hall after four locos were lost over the side in a storm. It was paired to 8068 (WD N0. 622) which was one of the locos lost. So if 45170 still has the same tender a little bit of LMS history will be returning home.

5E Alsager · 4 jan 2011

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RalphW · 8 jan 2011

Isn't this secrecy about the destination of 45170 just getting a bit silly. OK when negotiations for the purchase were in progress it's understandable, but now it's getting childish, "I know where it's going but I'm not going to tell".....

Spamcan81 · 8 jan 2011

Found a Turkish railway modeller's forum and the claim is that one 8F will go to secure store at Barry and the other will go on display at Shildon for a while. then it's off to Ian Storey's works for overhaul.
As ever, please don't shoot the messenger,

ghost · 8 jan 2011

RalphW zei: ↑

Isn't this secrecy about the destination of 45170 just getting a bit silly. OK when negotiations for the purchase were in progress it's understandable, but now it's getting childish, "I know where it's going but I'm not going to tell".....
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It's been reported elsewhere that 45170 will be going to Ian Storey's workshops.

Keith

Porcine-Aviator · 10 jan 2011

I have been watching the local BBC News from Bristol and they said that one loco would be going to Cheltenham, so I'm assuming that they mean the GWR as it's the only line that could take her, and they also said she would be joining her sisters. Odd as she is the only 8F there.

Still as far as I can see that is where she is heading for.:rockon:

IainDodd · 14 mrt 2011

I have seen a picture of 45170 at Shildon.

It looks remarkably complete considering it and 45166 were described as derelict.

Was any work done on it before it was returned?

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