Tornado

interesting post with good historical examples,

personally I would say it's a good inspection regime, ie. detection and prevention that nothing has happened followed by action to obtain a longer term cure and is a responsible course of action to take sending the boiler back, even if we forum posters may have opinions about it.

My choice of words would be a "Good team and inspection regime" rather than "good fortune"... unless you know something more about the extent of the issues at the time of it's discovery and it's observation during the last year ?

 

Knowing the German mentality, I bet that the boiler/firebox makers on the old DR (East German railways incl. Meiningen) knew exactly how best to treat their products to maximise service life because they'd done all the testing to find out. I wouldn't be at all surprised if what other posters here have mentioned (letting a fire burn out completely before dropping the ash, piping hot water from the mains round the boiler to avoid total cooling in their hard winters) were standard recommendations to MPDs.
I do hope that the A1 Trust ask them "how can we treat it better in future" when taking delivery of the repaired unit.

 

Deleted

 

Hollow stays presumably drilled from the fire side. When under way with a near white-hot fire I doubt that you would be able to see any water or steam coming out of a broken one or more.

 

Clearly you don't carry out an FTR after leaving the depot, and you don't leave the depot with a significant number of leaking stays.

 

It's called a Fitness to Run exam?

Your continuing insinuation that Tornado, through running this year, was lucky and has endangered lives as a result quite possibly, is speculation beyond that I would have thought appropriate, given no one here seems to have all the facts to hand.

Put simply, would 60163 have been allowed to run if there were a significant number of broken/cracked stays? I highly doubt it. For this precise reason, she was taken out of service in June/July 2010 and had replacement stays fitted. It is for this precise reason that the boiler has been removed for further repair.

All I can say is that while your examples seem sound, and the logic follows, I don't buy the idea that you seem to be insinuating strongly that Tornado, through running, was lucky not to kill her crew/passengers and otherwise cause irreparable damage to herself and others around her, particularly given the careful and methodical examinations which are carried out by the Trust's engineers at every given opportunity.

 

Actually it is quite easy to see in practice,!

 

Broken stays are a fact of life, regardless of boiler material. I feel Eightpot (who clearly has an issue with the A1) is being selective in his portrayal of the sequence of events leading to a boiler explosion. Whilst I don’t doubt that unchecked stay breakage will spread to the point where there is a collapse of the structure of the firebox, which is technically a boiler explosion, the reality is that one stay cracking does not lead to the immediate failure of surrounding stays. All right, there may be instances of common material failure that could speed the process, but as has already been pointed out, the whole point of hollow stays is to allow early detection of broken stays at FTRs and allow rapid repair before the stresses in the surrounding area leads to more breakages. Stay breakage does seem to be more of an issue with all steel boxes, regardless of all weld or part rivet construction.

Indeed, this would explain the level of stay replacement that is being undertaken when very few actually broken stays have been discovered. As a preventative measure, stays that may have been subject to extra stress and strain are being replaced.

Finally, I believe a major reason for the boiler returning to Germany is simply the specialist equipment at Meiningen will enable the work to be undertaken easier and to a better standard than an “in situ” repair, particularly to the foundation ring. That is not to say that the work couldn’t have been done in this country, but DB don’t have a workshop here equipped or staffed for steam!

Steven

 

I think that some have misunderstood me. Far from making any insinuations of the FTR exam, but is it reasonable to suggest that if a stay is going to break, it is more likely to happend while the boiler is working hard at or near full pressure, than during a gentle steam raising or the cooling down process?

 

No, I don't think we have. I think you have perhaps not quite realized the ramifications of your own posts:

Your suggestion of luck, and not maintenance, preventing a boiler explosion, being the key difference here. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

Quite so. It would appear, too, that the concept of a Factor of Safety being built in to a boiler, partly by dint of there being so many stays, has eluded some. Also, because of these 'hollow' stays, any failure is quickly picked up, as they're so much more obvious than traditional solid ones, where a hammer test is the usual way of detecting them, & even then is not infallible, as it involves a human factor in being able to detect sometimes only small changes in pitch between stays as they are hit.

To use emotive language over these matters may well aid those who would ban steam from the main line - citing H & S, or 'manageable risk' or some such. We should be VERY careful what we post; one never knows who's watching/reading these forums.

Mark

 

No wonder this thread is degenerating when amateurs are posting crap which is being taken as gospel by other amateurs.

Please, moderators, lock the thread until the A1 people and Meiningen have carried out a proper survey and produced a once and for all report.

And for peoples' information before dismissing me as a nutter, I trained on steam boilers.

 

Nutters welcome round here!

 

Hope it dosn't come down to this !!!!!

 

Deleted

 

Mods., please please take notice and lock this thread before someone's distorted ideas on boiler safety makes a problem for the whole steam movement, Health & Safety inspectors can read and some of the rubbish posted on here the last couple of days could give one the jitters should he come across this thread!

 

I dont think it needs to be locked, just a request from the mods to stop the pointless uninformed discussion about the boiler until further notice while allowing other topics to be discussed.

Chris

 

What other CURRENT Tornado topics are there?

 

Apart from questioning locking the thread I am inclined to go along with Weltrol's view. We don't know how many stays have fracture or even if they are the same ones being replaced, let alone other factors that have not as yet been revealed. Meanwhile let us accept that there are differing viewpoints on this subject and a succession of "Oh, yes it is", "Oh no it isn't" comments are not going to get us anywhere. No doubt the truth will emerge in time, so let us agree to differ for the moment. I'm sticking to my views, and the fact that the boiler has been returned to Meiningen suggests to me that there will be a bit more to it than just changing some stays and welding foundation ring cracks. Lets wait and see.