Fireless locos

There are quite a few fireless locos in the UK, but I can't think of any that I've seen 'in steam'.

I think MOSI in Manchester used to steam one, as did Quainton Road. I'm fairly certain that Quainton used an 0-6-0T to generate the steam pressure to fill up their loco. But are there any others in steamable condition, and does anyone know if there are advanced or practical plans to steam any of the unused ones? It seems such a shame as they're so incredibly bizarre. They'd be quite an attraction, whiffling about the place.

I think there is only one NG example - the 2'6" 'Unique' at Sittingbourne - which looks in a rather sorry state and I doubt she'll ever run again.

 

Time to lay my ignorance on the table and ask a question I have always been too ashamed to ask..... can someone please explain to me how a 'fireless' actually works?

 

Fireless locos would be used in industrial sites where stray sparks were very unwelcome line paper mills or gunpowder works. The steam would be generated by a boiler on site and the loco would be filled up with steam and would shuffle off and do its work for however long it could or was needed for, then refill, more work etc.

 

This should help:
http://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/fireless.htm

which includes:

"Mechanically, fireless locomotives are much the same as any other steam engine, but instead of having a boiler, a large, well insulated, reservoir is mounted on the mainframes. This is charged with steam from an external source to about 180 psi (12.4 bar) and the loco is capable of useful work until the pressure drops to 30 - 40 psi (2.1 - 2.8 bar). One charge can last for several hours, depending on the amount of work to be done. An important thermodynamic principle enables the fireless locomotive to make the most of its charge of steam. As the pressure drops the hot water remaining boils again at the lower pressure due to the temperature having remained fairly constant, thus producing more steam for further work. Unfortunately the process is not continuous because of heat loss and also the drop in water level as it is turned to steam. Once the reservoir is warm however, recharging is quite quick."

I've highlighted the bit which makes them different from "live steam" locos. The need for a steam supply to recharge the boiler makes them difficult to operate on heritage railways. Unless you happen to have a friendly factory boiler nearby. Makes you wonder if they could have connected the fireless at Sittingbourne to the paper mill's steam supply ... :-k

Richard

 

My understanding (open to correction by an expert) is that they are "Thermal Storage" locos.

Although charged by high pressure steam the energy of the steam is stored in the hot water in the reservoir. The reservoir starts out with a small amount of cold water and fills up as the steam condenses through it. There is a water level gauge glass, this is not to prevent the firebox being uncovered( because there isn't one!) but to show how much hot water, therefore stored energy remains. The pressure gauge will show the pressure above the water, but doesn't really drop much until water is quite low. Cylinders are fed through a pressure reducing valve, and as steam is used more is released from the hot water. The power available is pretty constant despite the pressure in the reservoir falling, until that is it drops to that of the reducing valve.

Conventional steam locos tend to lose pressure gradually while standing, and need replenishment of water and the fire to be fed. A fireless will hold most of its energy while standing. I recall that when Quainton ran theirs, it could be stabled and left after the public demonstrations were over. The other steam locos could then be disposed, and afterwards the fireless still had enough puff to put them away in the shed.

Steam is used sparingly, hence no whistle (just a bell) and no steam brake (big hand brake lever).

Mike

 

30 years ago when a fireless was delivered to the NNR, there was discussion in a Sherringham bar about the feasability of constructing the necessary pipework and using the J15 to provide steam for the fireless.
One person reckoned the J15's boiler would not generate steam at a high enough pressure.
This was countered by a suggestion that steam going from boiler to fireless for about 4 hours would compress the steam in the fireless to the pressure it needed.

Theory and counter theory went on for a little while, but as I said it was in the bar.

 

Wenlock is correct I believe. It's not just steam you need, but hot water at boiler pressure. This then flashes off more steam as the pressure gradually falls. As the reservoir is well insulated, it doesn't cool much unlike a conventional loco once the fire id dropped and cold air flows through the boiler tubes.

Think of a fireless as a bit like a "gas" cylinder, where the gas is stored at such a pressure that it is actually a liquid. If you just stored it a compressed gas you'd need a very high pressure to get much gas into it. Bear in mind also that liquid density is very roughly 1000 times greater than gas, so one litre of liquid will form 1000 litres of gas at atmospheric pressure. (This is vastly oversimplified but gives you some idea of why you want hot water, not just steam).

Of course as the water flashes to steam, the latent heat has to come out of the water, so cooling it. So I guess there's an optimum amount of water/steam space. Once the water is too cool to produce any more steam then it's recharge time. Thus the resevoir never empties of water.

 

Work on the Andrew Barclay fireless at the Scottish Industrial Railway Centre is ongoing albeit very slowly at present. It was intended for it to be operational by the summer but has been delayed by the need to relay a significant amount of track before opening for the season. I have never seen it used but apparently the routine was to connect it to one of the other locos in light steam and leave it charging overnight. This would give enough energy to shuttle up and down sidings for a few hours light loco. Will post some pictures or videos when it is finally on the go.

Gareth

 

Yep MOSI in Manchester had 1 then gave it away in there wisdom!! (PEOPLE IN OFFICES KNOWING BETTER THEN THE PEOPLE DOING THE CREWING AND NOT WANTING TO SPEND MONEY) use to take around two hours to chage up from a boiler. We then ran it on passenge trains starting around 1200 until 1600 then do a shunt. When starting you would fill the boiler up around 2/3s of a glass, then fill up with steam at first the steam would turn to water. But then as pressure rose you would then drain water off via blow vavle, so that water stayed around 2/3s. we would try to get 160ish presure but more offen 140 (the filling boiler being not that good). When first used you could watch the boiler presure fall. but this would go less and less as the boiling presure of the water lowered, the steam that you had boiled the water that you had. At the end of a day you could not see the water in the glass (no lead pug so no worryes). i got it moving with NO presure on the clock. But most did the shunt with around 10 to 20 ilbs on the clock. We fitted it with a petrol air compresser to work the air brakes so no steam used there it had a bell and a wistle. Have seen it on you tube somewhere?
The only costs it had was in the oil used for oiling up, as MOSI had the boiler on to work the items in the power hall.

sorry if any spelling is wrong just done a 10 hour duty and its 0245am now! bed time!

 

22A i think you must have been listening to people who d spent far too much time in the the tyneside club and then pontificating in the GE room afterwards? You know who they were!...So do i.Happy days though.

 

The fireless at the NNR has been used once I think but it was charged with compressed air was only moved around in sheringham station, but that was a long time ago. I never did find out where it went to after leaving the NNR.

 

And of course the cylinders, valves and valve gear were optimised to the magical property of 'Expansion'.

The power released when steam expands and cools is immense, compared with the power that pressurised steam will convey.

 

Thanks for the explanations, I too had always wondered but was always afriad to ask

I think I'm right in saying there was one at the Bodmin & wenford sometime ago,
(obviosly not in working order). Not sure if it's still there.

 

There was also one at the West Somerset Railway, Bagnall 0-4-0 2473, Huntley & Palmers No 1 from Reading.
I don't think it was ever operational at the WSR and was moved away in 2004.
http://www.uksteam.info/wsr/picsc/00043035.jpg

David

 

i beleive this is the one that was at Wallingford last time I visited in blkue livery fro some reason...as I recall it should be something akin to Maunsell Olive Green

 

At present there are Barclay 0-4-0Fs at Preston, Quainton, Butterley, Shildon, Bressingham, the National Waterways Museum, Kemsley Down, Swansea Museum Stores, Carnforth, Snibston, Dalmellington, Telford, Foxfield and Cardiff Museum. There is a Peckett 0-4-0F in Salford, an RSH on private land in Suffolk, and Bagnalls at Bodmin, Cholsey and Darlington.

Barclay 0-6-0Fs can be found at Carnforth, Bo'ness, Haverthwaite and Glasgow Museum, and there is a Hawthorn Leslie at Marley Hill and a couple of Bagnalls on private sites.

 

Thanks all - very interesting. Please do keep us all updated on the working fireless locos - I've always wanted to see one and would happily travel to do so.

 

the one in Salford is on a roundabout on the A57 in Irlam. painted green but with many parts missing.

 

Very late update but after many years the fire less loco at the Scottish Industrial Railway Centre is just about complete and has moved under its own power!

 

That must be the first time a fireless loco has operated in the UK since the MOSI loco was withdrawn in the late 1990s.

Well done to all involved