Flying Scotsman

I suspect because they were being vilified, slight difference. Gauging issues crop up all the time and usually we just have to get on with it, as the nation's media isn't onboard. Perhaps it shows up that NWR (sorry, some folk who work for NWR, who are in effect representing NWR though) can sort out gauging issues more than they could, they just can't be arsed unless the media and politicians start getting annoyed as well as enthusiasts. Or then again perhaps it doesn't.

 

sorry to point this out to you but I have at no time posted anything about NR or rubbished anyone in it.i merely thought a post referring to grown men playing steam trains was pathetic so I don't know how you interpret it otherwise.

 

There is a difference between 'Can't be arsed' and 'have lots of more important priorities'. Of course when it got into the news suddenly someone's priorities will have been changed. But that doesn't mean they weren't right, out of the spotlight, to concentrate on making the network fit for everyday essential service rather than the occasional run of obsolescent equipment for fun (magnificent and wonderful though the latter is!)

 

How did my post inspire pathos?

 

I suggest you do a bit of research before making sweeping generalisations.

Has NR made a mess of the GWML electrification? Yes on the face of it has, but lets look a little deeper shall we.

(1) How much electrification was undertaken in the Railtrack era? the answer is basically sod all (remember Railtrack was set up to outsource all is engineering functions with much useful expertise and documentation retired / destroyed as 'not required')
(2) How much electrification experience (in design or installation) did NR have before the ministerial announcement the the GWML was to be wired? the answer is once again sod all
(3) How much expedience did contractors have of UK electrification before the ministerial announcement? Again the answer is sod all
(4) How much time was NR and the wider railway industry given to make good the shortages before embarking on a major electrification project? Again the answer is sod all.
(5) How much of the above is directky the fault of NR? suprise suprise, the answer again is sod all.

The brutal fact is that NR was instructed by the DfT to start three major electrification projects all at the same time, when it was common knowledge within the industry that the skills were not there to deliver it in the timescales ministers have demanded. What NR is in effect having to do is what BR did in the 1960s with the WCML - learn how to electrify a mainline from scratch, but with all the extra H&S constraints that were not present back in the 60s. Once again I have to remind people NR is not BR - many decisions BR would have been able to take / moderate / reject are impossible alter thanks to the privatisation process, with the DfT having far more direct control over the railways than it ever had with BR. NR and the TOCs are very usefull scapegoats for current and past Whitehall blunders - even to the extent that some on here thought NR was the one awarding franchises!

So is NR incompetent? - in some respects yes, is that the fault of NR themselves? - not totally, the inhabitants of Whitehall who spent two decades decrying electrification as unnecessary / too expensive / unreliable (which the ECML cut price installation is) and thus overseeing the decimation of the UKs electrification skills set have a lot to answer for as do those who decided that Railtrack should contract out everything and thus stripped NR of skills and documentation which would have made things much easier on the GWML project.

 

100% correct - if only others were as sensible as you.

 

Sorry, I need to learn when to leave it!
I sincerely apologise to anyone offended by my "playing trains" comment. You have my sympathies.

 

So you are saying they were right, given twelve weeks notice, to announce less than 24 hours before the start of the tour, that it "couldn't be done" (even tho we later found out it could" ?

believe me that's not looking at "more important priorities" that is a prime example of "couldn't give a stuff"

Oh dear, looks like I haven't been sensible.

 

No, of course not. Very badly handled.
But I sincerely doubt the relevant people in NR were sitting around with nothing to do. They will have been pulled off their day jobs (or days off) to do the gauging. It would be nice if they got some gratitude, instead of insinuations that they are lazy feckless jobsworths.

 

thank you for your apology .I too will apologise for saying your post was pathetic I will try to be more courteous in future.

 

I can assure you the chairman is not going be looking for congratulations, he'll be looking for heads, having had to fork out a shed load of money and resource to correct a majorly thoughtless cock up.

 

an interesting read.makes me wonder why the top management have taken on jobs that mean if they cant do the impossible then they will look to be failures.certainly don't envy them.

 

How many times do I have to say theis Charter trains and the Flying Scotsman ARE NOT THE CENTRE OF THE UNIVERSE and NR rightly proritise work relating to regular passenger freight and infrastructure matters. Ensuring a line remains to gauge after say a relaying job or bridge reconstruction IS more important than the Flying Scotman. As such its not impossible to imagine a situation where the necessary checks kept being pushed down the pile until the normal office staff found out they couldn't be completed in time and put out the cancellation notice.

Unless NR decide to publish a warts and all report into this episode then we (including the 99% of NR employees who have nothing to do with charter train planning / gauging) will not know how much was down to carelessness, overwork, incompetence, lack of training, insufficient resources (people and data / equipment). As with most screw ups in life it is most likely a combination of several factors, the exact proportion of which is what should decide what happens to those involved.

 

Cant you see its nothing to do with the flying scotsman, simply they have failed at that you have just said they should be doing?

 

If the chairman of NR tells ministers what they don't want to hear - that person will soon become an Ex chairman. Basically Ministers don't like being told they are wrong by organisations they manage - recent disputes between Teachers and the DfE or the Department of Health and the BMA being examples of this.

BR actually had a very effective board in respect of ensuring ministers did not run away with themselves and ensured that what was announced was actually deliverable. Its something sorely missing in the post privatisation world where DfT meddling and ill thought out initiatives (however well intentioned they may be - such as investing in electrification) can easily go wrong

 

Is that why the Gov of the day lost patience with the BR board and employed Beeching?

 

I can only comment on what I see and hear, I have always worked in a target lead industry where a 'can do' attitude was essential. I'm afraid NR come across as anything but that and passengers have been severely let down on a number of occassions, remember the fiasco at Kings Cross a while back. I'm just pleased I never have to use our over priced railways.

 

The charter training planning / gauge clearing department of NR has indeed failed quite spectacularly - I am very happy to accept that.

However I do take issue with people outside of NR who claim on here they personally know exactly what went on and assure us (with no evidence) that is all because people within NR are lazy / hate steam / couldn't give a s**t about the company / actively seek to piss others off / are totally useless / etc.

Yes we know NR has a 'history' when it comes to charter planning / gauge clearance issues, and yes we can suggest similarities with past cases, but as any half decent engineer / scientist will tell you it is entirely possible to end up with the same failure mode but with very different causes. As such assuming that you know exactly where things went wrong and who / how they should be punished actually deminishes, not enhances the posters credentials.

 

What exactly have the last few posts got to do with Flying Scotsmans overhaul and return to traffic?

Dave B

 

Because its about the fact the Flying Scotsman didn't nearly return to traffic?