Margaret

Has an engineering survey ever been done on her?

 

That actually makes her the oldest surviving GW loco! (although not one built by or for the GWR itself).

 

It doesn't have to run, it could be a cosmetic overhaul and be kept in a display situation. Under cover of course.

 

I believe that a few people "in the know" have looked at her and concluded that a lot would need replacing.

 

So keep her as she is. A very precious and special relic. I had a good look over her a couple of years ago and she is very original and lovely. She deserves to be under cover at the very least and then very gently cosmetically restored.

 

Apart from Margaret's interesting and rather convoluted history, including the GWR issue, her other claim to fame is that she is one of only four surviving locos built by Fox-Walker. AFAIK only one of the four, "Karlskoga", preserved in Sweden, is in reasonable mechanical condition- she was steamable until the early 2000s- the example at Bristol is, or was when I last saw it, a wreck, whilst Margaret and the Mangapps example, Minnie, are intact, though Minnie has the advantage of being kept indoors.

I suspect that Margaret and Minnie share the same basic problem, in that apart from the attraction of seeing such relics running, in order to raise the funds necessary to guarantee their long term survival they really need to be restored to working order. However, there is no doubt that some of Minnie's present structure would have to be discarded in any restoration and it seems that the same applies to Margaret. As far as Minnie is concerned, we dismantled and surveyed her some years ago, but then put restoration to working order on the back burner on the basis of advice from the late Andrew Dow and the fact that there are always plenty of other things to spend the money on! However, the issue keeps coming back, most recently as a result of seeing Bill Parker's efforts with his ex GER "Coffeepot", which is of similar age. One thing that I think needs consideration is just how much of the existing engine is original anyway- we know that Minnie's boiler and wheels, for example, were renewed in 1934- does the same or similar apply to Margaret?

 

Even a cosmetic restoration to full GWR livery of 1898 sounds delightful. (The alternatives of NP&FR or GVR liveries are somewhat esoteric even if anyone knows what they were in detail)

 

this +1. She needs to be protected from further deterioration but tells quite a story just as she is. That should be the purpose of any preserved loco.

 

Just checking some notes I had
Margaret was named after the wife of Edward Cropper, owner of Rosebush Quarries on the Maenchlochog railway
GWR took over line in 1898
It was "swindonised" in 1904 and received the usual GWR treatment - GWR boiler, brass safety valve cover etc
It was sold out of GWR service in 1910 and to the Burry Port and Gwendraeth Valley line, and then was required by the GWR in 1923
It was a stationary boiler after working on the BP and GV line from 1923
By 1941 it was out of use and stored in the shed after the tin plate works it was used at closed
Therefore I suspect the boiler is from the 1904 rebuild

 

Margaret was sold to the Gwendraeth Valleys Railway (as their no 2), a different company to its larger neighbour with a similar but longer name, though it was worked by the BP&GVR until 1905.
The GVR was effectively in the same ownership as the Kidwelly Tinplate Co. Ltd and at the grouping Margaret's sale to that company was arranged.

 

Then the GWR plates she bears are from pre 1910, I remarkable survival through other ownerships after 1923!
Off topic but,What news of the BPGVR loco that used to be at Didcot?

 

That was Pontyberem
It is now owned by the BP and GV group which has stock at the Gwili and P and B
The loco itself is at an engineering shed in Barry being repaired as time and funds permit.

Margaret, Pontyberem, 813 and TVR28 are all examples of pre grouping locos rebuilt by the GWR, any others?

 

1340, 1338

GWR constituent loco gala anyone?

 

I wasn't aware she still carried any GWR plates, I can't see any in photos of her. The cabside number plates are GVR no 2. In January 1911 she was given registered number 73 for working onto GWR metals, a procedure usually reserved for industrial locos. There's no sign of her having carried Registered plates but as she still wasn't included in GVR stock returns in June 1911 I speculate that she officially belonged to the Tinplate Company for a year or so and the GVR number plate replaced a GWR No 73 Registration Plate in the same position.

 

"Tiny"

 

I assumed from post 14 that it still had GWR numberplates onit in 1969....not the case it seems.

 

Pontyberem was sold in 1914 by the BP&GVR so wasn't ever a GWR engine.

 

true and that makes it even rarer really

 

Also "Prince of Wales". Presumably "Sir Haydn" and "Edward Thomas" also received some modifications under GWR ownership.

 

Yes, a rebuild of the "quietly dismantle the entire loco and build a new one while the accountant is distracted" variety.
Still practiced in engineering today: "Of course we can fund this from the capital maintenance budget, we reused this bolt and this bit of cable!"